Arlene Is Alone with Brock McGillis

Brock McGillis, the first openly gay professional hockey player, joins Arlene for a powerful conversation about living authentically and creating real impact. Brock opens up about navigating pro hockey while hiding his identity, the three-year relationship he kept private before coming out, and why he stopped caring about the opinions of people who refuse to understand. He also shares how his advocacy work has saved thousands of lives and what it means to live with purpose—focusing on societal impact over approval. This is a conversation about truth, resilience, and using your story to change the world.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I look at everything as a lesson. What can I learn from this? How can it make me better? And it's sort of like created the this like absurd random career that nobody has that I've sort of created for myself is based on that. But I think I was also in situations that it was like fight or flight, right? Like if it was either roll with this and evolve from it or die. And what do you pick?

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Hi everyone, it's Arlene Dickinson.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Welcome to this week's episode of Arlene is alone. Brock McGillis made history as the first openly gay professional hockey player. A title that came with unimaginable weight. But his story isn't just about breaking barriers in the sport he loves. It's about what happens when you stop living for everyone else and start living for yourself. Today, Brock opens up about the double life he lived for years, the courage it took to finally step into his truth, and why he stopped caring about opinions that were never meant to matter. He also talks about the work he's doing now, shaping the lives of young men and women who are fighting their own battles, and how he handles the pushback that comes with being unapologetically himself. This is about more than hockey. It's about finding the strength to be who you are, even when the world isn't ready for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Hi everyone, and welcome back to this week's episode of Arlene's Alone. And today I am alone with Brock McGillis.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Hi.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Hey. So good friend of Tommy Smythe, which gets you a seat at the table, like no matter what.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Oh yeah, I use that to get in the restaurants. I should. Yeah. I actually got a ticket on the way here. I should have dropped his name.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

You should have. You got a ticket?

SPEAKER_02 1:54

I got a ticket on the way here.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

A speeding ticket.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Yeah. But do you think his name can get me another ticket? No.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I I think if anything, it might give you a they might give you another ticket for like a picket. Extra points. Yeah, they might say, no, you know Tommy. No, you're gonna He's great. And and and I'm so glad he connected us because you know we were we were talking and he said, Oh my God, you have to meet my friend Brock. And I went, sure, I would love to meet your friend Brock. And then I I it I didn't I I mean I I love hockey. I'm not gonna, you know, pretend that but I'm not gonna pretend like I couldn't name off all the stats. My grandson, he couldn't tell you every in fact, the other day we were going down, I think from 19 I don't know, it was like 20 years of um Stanley Cup games, what two teams played, who won. You know, like he like he knows every stat, so he would know who you are for sure. But I kind of like that I don't know who you are from a hockey perspective, um, because I want to hear about all the things you're doing in advocacy, all the things you're doing in hockey. And by the way, heated rivalry stole his story, okay? Like this is your story first.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

I was the OG. Yes. Yeah, I'm waiting for my cameo. So if uh the folks behind Heated Rivalry are watching this, I I'm I'm I'm waiting for the call any any time now. But uh it's kind of surreal to see a that sort of the the cult phenomenon it's become, but also to see some of the things that are very similar to your life end up on a screen and you're watching it and you're like, I live that. Yeah. It's a little triggering.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah. Is it? Did what part of it was made for a movie versus made for like riches versus real life?

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Um so I look at like the way the two kind of start to hook up is very gay-coded in the sense that that's how a lot of gay men sort of hook up in public spaces or whatever, and um they're in a shower together at a gym or whatnot. Um that wouldn't happen in hockey.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

No.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Everyone's so afraid of losing their career, their job, they think they'll be ostracized. They would never do that. But things like there's there's a scene in the show where um one of the players plays for Montreal and he sneaks the player from Boston uh in and out of his condo through the fire escape. I dated a guy for three years of my life without a soul knowing. We had an alias, a fake name for his friend, so they couldn't find me on social media uh before I was out while I was playing. And I was living in Montreal and literally snuck him up and out of my fire escape so nobody would see. And I just like I was watching, I was on tour and I was I was watching it in a hotel room on my laptop and I had to slam it down. It's like I'm done.

SPEAKER_06 4:52

Yeah, done. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Um so there's there's aspects like that that are very real and uh relatable. There's other things I might the hockey aspect, uh Jacob, give me a call because I think we can clean that up a little bit and make that a little more realistic. But um the made for TV, like the player professing his love on the ice for somebody in the stands or waving to them while the they're in warm-ups. Like that's not that's never going to happen. That's never happened. I mean, players won't even wave to their children half the time. They'll give them a little wink or something, you know. Um so to see that, I'm like, uh like it's not realistic, but again, it's television.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah. And it it does, it does elevate the conversation and make people understand that it's a reality and make people, you know, less like less afraid maybe to be able to come out in in the hockey situation, or do you think it actually stigmatizes it more?

SPEAKER_02 5:52

I think here's what I've said, my words got twisted. I ended up being the 24-hour news cycle in the US in like mid-December because I gave a quote that got spun, and before I knew it, People Magazine, TMZ, page six, uh you name it, the New York Post. The last headline I saw was like, New York Post had something along the lines of Brock McGillis says this show's bad for the LGBTQ plus community. And I'm like, that's not what I said, but I mean all press, I guess it's good press. Um to me, I where I think it has um a really positive impact is fandom. Forty-three percent of NHL fans in America are women. Over 20% of NHL fans in America are LGBTQ, and nothing is created for those demos. Now imagine if we created stuff. So we're we're not even touching, like tapping into them. We throw a Pride Night once a year, a woman's, you know, International Women's Day once a year, um, and and that's it. Imagine if we actually created things for those audiences. They did this, it increased the fandom. I would bet those numbers are higher today than they were. That was pre-heated rivalry. So to me, that will grow potentially the game and create new fan bases, new audiences, which in turn, the more new audiences we have, the more diverse the audience is, um, the safer the sport will eventually become for players to come out. Do I think it's going to have an immediate impact on players in a locker room? No, that could be an adverse effect. Because if a player's wife is watching it and a guy walks in on a sex scene between two men and he goes in the room and he's like, I can't believe this discussed blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Whatever they the Dubros say. Then at that point, that guy that's hiding who he is in the room is hiding even more.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

He's gonna cower, he's gonna retreat further.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

I did.

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

I lived it. I know.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

So at that point, that could have an adverse effect, unintentionally, but the show's not for that audience, not for the Dubros. It's for the girls and the gays.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah, that's that's fair enough. I just want to go back a little bit to young Brock, you know, young kid Brock, you know, growing up. Like, where did where did you, you know, where when did you come out? Yeah. And how did you come out, if that's uh if that's the proper way to say it. But when did you and then when did you get into hockey?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

So I I I'm from Sudbury, Ontario. I'm a small No, you're a Sudbury boy, okay. I'm a Sudbury boy. I'm I'm from the north. I really had two options in life, become a minor or a hockey player. Um and I just had such a passion for hockey. Um I could rhyme off everything like your grandson. Uh it was just my love, um my first love. And every day I'd walk to the rink with my equipment hoping to get on the ice. Like, and if there were teams in in from Sudbury practicing at that rink, I was hoping they were short of goalie so I could go on with them. My parents would drop off all my meals on weekends at the arena.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Really?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

I lived at the rink.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

And I started progressing in the sport. And before I knew it, I was moving on to higher and higher levels and eventually to the OHL and professional. Um but I I suppressed who I was through it and adhered to the stereotypes and tropes of a hockey bro. Because you couldn't be gay in there. The language, behaviors, and attitudes, you just couldn't do it. Um it was almost like psychological torture being gay.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Because you knew you were gay, but yet you couldn't live that life.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

And and my identity was wrapped around being a hockey player. From a very young age, everywhere I went, all people would ask me about is hockey, right? You you go to school, you're in you're in grade nine, and all your teachers are like, How's hockey going? You'd see um your friend's parents, how's hockey holidays? You'd see relative, how's hockey? Your whole identity is solely based around the sport, um, especially in Canada. So that became all of me. And then this other thing, this gay thing, which the what the the way people spoke about it in the rooms and put each other down using homophobic language, made me go, oh, I'm not gonna have friends, teams won't sign me, my career's gonna be over. So these two identities were pulling at each other and they felt so opposite that I was like, well, I can suppress this one and pretend I'm not it, and in my mind, try and convince myself that I'm straight.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

And continue down this road with my first love. But it it ripped me apart. I was, I think from 18 to 23, I drank every single day. I was self-harming, I was seriously depressed, I was um I had season-ending injuries, my career debrailed. Um finally I was 23 and I was playing in the minors in Europe, and I sat myself down, I just said, you need to figure this out. Because I knew two things were gonna happen. One, hockey was gonna end, it was already going downhill. I was having like I I have I can name you as like a season-ending injury head to toe. Every part of my body. And number two, most importantly, if I didn't figure out who I was and I kept going down this destructive path of drinking daily and all the other stuff and the depression and whatnot, I was gonna end up dead. Like there was no doubt in my mind. So I came back from that season instead of going to Sebury, I came here to Toronto and I went on a date with a guy. And I was like, Yep, you're gay.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 11:16

And that was that was your first kind of open That's where I sort of people talk about acceptance, but I think the first acceptance has to be internal.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

And it was that moment that I went, oh shit, okay. So I actually dated him for three years without a soul knowing. Not a friend, family member, nobody, and we had that alias. And then um I had injury, so I was able to hide it for a while, and then we um broke up because I was going back to play, and I told him I say I might have to go on dates with women. Like people start questioning me, I might have to, and that's a really shitty thing for not only him, but like frankly, as a gay man to treat women that way is awful. Um and he's like, I can't deal with that. We broke up and then I became friends. I don't know, do you know Brian Burke at all?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Mm-hmm. I know Brian Will.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Okay, so right after that, his son Brendan came out. And Brendan, I reached out to him the night he came out. And he was other than the person I was dating, he was the first person I told. And we would talk daily. And then one day he sent me a text and said, I can't wait for the day that you're out to your family like I'm to mine. And I ignored him. Not because I didn't think my family would be inclusive or supportive, but they were so involved in hockey that I was afraid they'd start standing up to the language. They're kind of Irish hawheads and jeopardized my career. So I ignored Brendan's message. Uh those ended up being the last words he ever said to me. He passed away two days later.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Oh well, yeah, I was just gonna say, and then that was probably right around the time when he killed himself. And and that uh that was a it was a tragic, tragic moment for for Brian and his family, and and you know, and and just all of it, you know. I was actually on a trip to um Afghanistan with Brian right after that happened and watched him you know deal with the pain of the loss um as as only you know in in a Brian way. Yeah. And uh it it was devastating for for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

I was actually texting him on the way here. We've still remain I I think the world of family.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Please say hello to him. I haven't talked to him for a while.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

But I decided to honor Brendan, I would tell my family. And I first came out, uh coming out, people talking about coming out, but it sort of happens, it's not a one-time thing. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm still, like, as much as I can be in the press this side or the other, speak around the world, I still come out. So I'll meet new people and people don't they're like, oh, do you have or they'll see a ring, they'll be like, Do you have a a wife? And I'm like, no, I have a husband. So you're kind of always doing it. Um but I came out to my family and friends by stake closet in hockey, and I remained that way for years, and it wasn't until 2016, right after Pulse, the mascara Pulse Night Club, that I decided um uh actually right after it, a friend of mine here ended up on a terrorist hit list. He was running uh Toronto Pride. I've never told this story publicly.

SPEAKER_03 14:15

Wow, that's unwell.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

And it was like, hey, I'm done.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

And I reached out to a journalist friend the next day and I wrote an article coming up.

unknown 14:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

That's insane. Like just I I I can't even imagine like somebody that close to you going through that, like to to find out that you're on a hit list. Like that's just it's unfathomable, really. It really is. And and for for being who you are.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Because he had been in the media a lot talking about pulse.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Really?

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

It strikes me that the there's moments in your life that you learn from the the crises that you face, right? I mean, it sounds like you you take, you know, things happen and they actually change you. Even facing yourself at 23, saying, if I keep drinking, if I keep doing this, I'm gonna, you know, end up not in a good place. I mean, even taking that life crisis you were going through and turning it around, that takes a lot of introspection and ability to examine your life.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

I love looking at myself and trying to evolve.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

I am I'm a big believer in it. I I think, well, I'm sure like you you wouldn't be as successful if as you are if you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Yeah, you have to.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

You know, and um it's been a catalyst for me. But it it's um I think I also kind of thrive in the chaos. It's like I don't crash or collapse in it. I just I learn and I grow. And I look at everything as a lesson. What can I learn from this? How can it make me better? And it's sort of like created the this like absurd random career that nobody has that I've sort of created for myself is is based on that. But I think I was also in situations that it was like fight or flight, right? Like if it was either roll with this and evolve from it, or die. And what do you pick?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah. Well, I mean, I I think back to that young kid walking with his equipment from a little town outside of Sudbury, you know, every day and living at the rink. That that kid somehow you found this deep inner strength that many people never find in their life, which is the ability to, you know, um have this iron will, this, this, this Teflon will. Maybe it's a better way to let things, you know, not stop you from chasing your dream. That's that's it's very rare. Um fortunately for you, you got derailed through, you know, abuse and through, you know, having to live a double life. And I think that that living a double life has got to be incredibly hard to do. Uh it's hard enough to show up as yourself, let alone show up as yourself for one set of people and yourself as really yourself for the people that you know who love you.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

You know what I'm grateful for it.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Truly I am. Um if I had made the that NHL career I was supposed to have and that linear trajectory and everything was went as I wouldn't be the person I am today.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

See, even that, the fact you can say that, Brock, is something. Because most people would say, you know, I really regret that I didn't have the hockey career that I could have had, or I really regret that this happened to me, but I've made the best of it. You're basically saying I'm grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Honestly, Arlene, I look at it like this. So on these hockey tours alone, and I speak at schools, corporations, events, the whole bit. Um, these hockey tours alone, I've had close to a thousand hockey players across this country this hockey season say that they've tried to die by suicide in the last year.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

That's insane. A thousand.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Over a thousand.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Over a thousand. That's awful.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Um from twelve to twenty years old.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Because they just feel lost? They feel so unseen, they feel like they are living double lives?

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Um most of them are straight.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

And um a lot of my work has sort of evolved that it's not even a it's my story's always LGBTQ plus themed because my life doesn't change, but it's really for everyone, and I'm sure we'll jump into that. But the fact I can get those people support, the fact that I'm able to be a support system for some. I've taught 500, maybe a thousand hockey players how to meditate this season. I I have elite hockey players across this country send me daily journal entries. Um I've had thousands where I've been able to get them uh mental health resources, different things that they were struggling with. I wouldn't have been doing that. So in one sense, yeah, cool. Like I that that career, the you know, the millions of dollars of this or that, it's phenomenal. But like societal impact?

SPEAKER_01 19:14

Yeah, you're making a difference.

unknown 19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Like when somebody says to you, you saved my life, would I rather 20,000 people cheer for me?

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Yeah. Yeah. Well that's back to the little boy who, you know, was prepared to do whatever it took to, you know, live the life that that is meant to be lived. Do you do you think that uh when you talk about those people that are saying to you that you saved their lives, are they predominantly men? Are women hockey players reaching out to you?

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Oh yeah, it's uh it's about 60-40 men. Um I think in many instances when boys and men, when we're in these rooms and I have these sessions, and it's usually like almost like a keynote, but it's a it's really interactive and engaging, and then it's followed by a breakout, and a lot of my work now is challenging their bravery. I I talk about how we can all create shifts called shift makers, and uh big or small, they have a ripple effect. And and I share anecdotal stories from things I've seen in my life that have sort of led me to recognize that. And three ways scrape shifts humanize an issue. When you put a face to something, it becomes more real. The environment we create. And the easiest way to create a good environment, in particular in locker rooms and team settings, or even corporate settings for that matter, is language and different types from direct language to laughter to body language to silence. And um I I share a story with them. Um my first tour across Canada, a 13-year-old boy came up to me in tears. And I said, What's wrong? He goes, Brock, I'm Jewish. We had a tournament out of town last weekend, and some of my teammates went in my hotel room and just swastika's on my hotel mates. He goes, You inspire me and tell them how it made me feel. So I worked with him for a couple of days, went back in with the team, and he got to humanize the impact of that moment. He got to really talk to them about how that impacted him. And I got to reinforce language and in particular science, three players did, but another seven stood around and watched. Well, if the media gets that story, there's say ten players are in a room, this happened, and all ten of them would be labeled white supremacists or Nazis. Um we saw the World Junior trial. Two players left that room and texted each other and said, This is messed up. Imagine if we taught people in society, in all walks of life, that it's brave to use your voice. That you won't be isolated, alienated, you won't be the next person targeted by your peers for using your voice. Maybe they would have said that out loud. Maybe we wouldn't have had that trial. And the third way to create breaking conformity. Whether it's in corporate culture, um, sports, hockey in particular, is riddled with it. They dress the same, talk, same, walk, same. If you ever watch an NHL game. When you listen to a player game interview. It's painful. My ears bleed. Uh pucks in deep. Back check. But but it's true. And then they wonder why they make less money than backup players in the MBA. They show no personality whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah, it's like they're not, they're not, they're certainly not media trained, and they're certainly not it's almost like they're afraid to, you know, show emotion that that's somehow a weakness. And and I take your point that it's you need to use your voice and you need to speak up. And and and I certainly do that. I found my courage as I've gotten older that I've been more courageous because you know you you recognize the the value of time, you recognize that you have to, you know, talk about what you believe in and that it's it really is an obligation to do that. But you know, there was a bunch of women who did use their voices and did talk about it and did say, you know, what had happened. And and justice did not happen, you know. Um so you know, is it always you know, is it always gonna work out well when somebody uses their voice?

SPEAKER_02 23:01

No, it's not. But it's I think it also matters who uses their voice.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Why is the onus on the woman? Why is the onus on the woman? Why is the onus on the outside? Well, where is the onus on the people that were there to use their voice? When are they going to be brave enough to stand up in moments?

SPEAKER_06 23:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

No difference than the seven kids who watch the three draw swastikas. When are they gonna be brave enough to go, hey man, this is wrong? Do you know what I mean? Instead of so proactively using the voice as opposed to post or reactively using it is is I think important. And but at the same time, in a moment, maybe something doesn't happen when a woman uses her voice in those situations and whatnot. But as women have used their voice, we've seen an evolution, is there still wrongdoing? Absolutely. And will that always exist? 100%. I don't think we'll fully get rid of it. But the more in my mind we challenge people's courage, in particular men and boys, and and to me that breaks down to masculinity. But when I challenge their courage in these rooms, their bravery. That's their toughness, that's their machismo, their their so they go, Oh yeah, well, I'm brave. Okay, so then we do a break, and I'm like, tell me something you wouldn't tell your teammates about yourself. And you're gonna have two answers in your head. You're gonna have a superficial bullshit answer, and then you're gonna have a real answer, a brave one. You can give me either answer, but you and I will both know if you chose to be brave today or not. From that moment on when I started doing that, that's where it all flipped. I I've had um in the past calendar year, I've had approximately 500 players of color talk about the racism they've experienced in the sport. I've had thousands of players talk about mental health struggles. Um, over a thousand players on this tour alone this winter talk about self-harming or dying by suicide. But this is the first time they've disclosed this to anyone. And they're saying it to their peers, their teammates, the people that they dress the same, talk the same, walk the same like, and now they're letting it all out and they're all sobbing, hugging each other, supporting each other, and we're able to get them resources. It's breaking down those walls. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

The people that they were most afraid to tell are the people that are the most supportive to them.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

And also what they're recognizing is because I used my work used to be about LGBTQ. Well, a lot of people feel talked at. And nothing is relatable to them when they're told what to think, how to act, what to say, et cetera. But when they start to build empathy, when they're also able to share and engage and feel. Now, when that other person shares the racism they experience, when they when the straight white man says, I'm going through this, and then this person goes, I'm going through this, they they might not be the same, and we don't have to have like an oppression Olympics, but we can build empathy. And to me, that is so damn powerful. Like even in corporates, like I've been in C-suites where people have stood up and said, you know, I had a person stand up in a C-suite in the US and say, I didn't go to college, my family couldn't afford it. And um, I sit around with my colleagues and they talk about their college experiences, and I get really quiet and I I pull inward. And saying this in front of all of them. And then goes, I'm like, you don't talk in meetings, do you? Person's like, no. I said, they need your voice. Your lived experience is so different than everyone else in the room. They need your perspective. You're here for a reason. You know, and but the more they all engage and and share and recognize that everyone's going through stuff.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Everyone's going through stuff. We all have to do that. Why can't we accept that and allow people to have their mouth? It's like I go cr a bit crazy when I see, you know, um just thinking on a political level, you know, you see people saying very much on one side of the fence and very defensive of what's happening, and then suddenly they become completely the opposite and they say, no, I I now think differently. And people are get mad at them and say, Well, where were you? It's you're part of the problem, you're the reason we're here. If you had spoken up a long time ago. But people need to go get to their courage in their own way. They they need to have those experiences. And I I think it's fine if somebody, you know, do I love that somebody, you know, listen, I'm not an American, but my view, do I love if somebody voted for Trump? No. But you know, if they did and they wanted to support that, and then they come to the realization that it was a mistake, good. They came to that realization. And whenever they come to that realization, let them. Like, I don't know why we have to trash them and say that, oh, well, we're you were the you're the problem. No, they they did what they thought was right at the time.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Um two things for that. Uh uh politics has almost become like sports teams.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

You know, like it's like I'm a Leafs fan, I'm uh a Habs fan, and you're that and you hate the other side, and I'm like, this isn't a game.

SPEAKER_06 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

This is like this isn't entertainment. This is this is our lives. Like we we have to have some critical thinking skills and cognitive dissidence through all this. Like it's preposterous.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Aaron Powell And have some grace for each other and allow each other the chat the opportunity to change our minds.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

And and that's the other thing. I I've never been a believer. I'll call out institutions. I'll call out societal things. I'll never call out people. I want to call people in. Because that's how we evolve. If we tell people what to think, they'll never do it, they'll fight back. If we show them, show them impact, they're gonna be more receptive and then they're gonna be a a part of the change.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

It's so hard to do though, Brock. I mean, it you can get like I you know, like there's times that I see stuff and I just I I know it's not nice, but I'll, you know, like I know there's times that I should be a little less sarcastic and a little less but I just sometimes just go like, no, that is just now you're just being stupid, you know. Like there's there's a difference between like there's a stupidity that I don't know that you can change sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Is that but here's the thing. Like I'll go to some cities in Canada and they'll be like, um, I was in a particular place in Alberta and they didn't want their hockey players working with me because they didn't they said I'm inappropriate for children.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

What?

SPEAKER_02 29:37

And basically I'm gay, so I'm a groomer.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

I see.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

In their minds.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

And I could either call them out, call them bigots, call them this. Do you know what I did? They the governing body said, no, we're doing this, so send your teams. They didn't fully send them, they kind of made it optional. A few players showed up. I made those the best sessions of my life. I, from those sessions with that organization, there's probably five players who potentially I saved their lives. And then the governing body got to go back to them and go, there, look what he did for your kids. And you're sitting there talking about so I go back to that iron will you spoke about. Um I'm too stubborn to fail. I get no's, I get threats. I uh the amount of death threats I've gotten is in this work in the past ten years is I remember one weekend I had over 250,300 where people were sending me my address. And like what so doesn't scare you? I a lot of the time don't post where I'll be until after I've been there. Strategically. Um especially when I I did tour across the United States. Um I would strategically, and I was going to like Midwest rural America, like like the heart of the people who think I'm an abomination. And I wouldn't post where I was until after I was gone. But other than taking precautions like that, like I'm too stubborn to fail. And also I I've always found that people would look at what I do and go, oh, it's really nice, but you can't change everything. You can't be everywhere. I'm like, oh yeah. I have this in this, I I I think it's the competitiveness that made me a good athlete that I'm gonna prove you wrong.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

I'm gonna show you.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

But it has to hurt. It has I mean, I as strong as you are, it has to hurt.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Um yeah, it all hurts. I mean, my my hockey tours, like I'm going across the country and I'm I'm 250 teams in under 200 days. Like I run 15, 18 hour days. I I don't sleep, I'm uh dealing with people's emotional trauma. I'm I'm getting to a hotel at 1 a.m. I'm up at 6. Uh I'm eating dinner at 1, going to bed at 2 or 3, up at 6 and back at it. It's that hurts. Um the the entire system is flawed. I don't get support from groups like Hockey Canada, they won't work with me. Even though I I have testimonial, testimonial survey results after survey results showing this work, showing the players want it, and they won't. Um the other stuff used to hurt. The uh what other people thought about me. Can I swear? I live by something now, it's fuck them. I don't give a shit what anyone thinks about me. Couldn't care less, none of my business. It's none of my business what anyone thinks about me.

SPEAKER_06 32:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

And when I figured that out, and it took a long time to get there, I mean, uh but what I recognized, Arlene, was worrying about what people thought about me when I was struggling with who I was almost killed me.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Yeah. Fair. I mean, that's it's true, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:06

So now it's either worry about what they think or just go and do.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Or be who you are.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

And be me, do work that I'm passionate about doing, um, shift culture and evolve society, and if anyone doesn't like it, fuck them.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Such a lesson there for people because you know, my dad used to say to me, if I'd wanted to try something, he'd say, Well, what are you afraid of? And I'd say, well, I know, you know, if I fail, you know, what are people are gonna laugh at me or whatever. And he'd say, you know, Arlene, like you would worry a lot less about what other people thought of you if you knew how little they did. And other like they we might be five minutes of conversation in their lives, but we're all busy living our lives, we're all busy doing the things that we do every day. Completely agree with you that you can't worry about what other people think of you because it just it it will change you from reaching the height of what you're possibly capable of. And that's what matters.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

It's just having critical thinking skills. And and if somebody doesn't, or they're going to spend their days sitting at home dwelling about a dry queen, why do I care what they think?

SPEAKER_06 34:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Truly. Like, great, think that. Sit there and stew all day and dwell on this and not live life.

unknown 34:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

I think it's such an important message. I I would say, Brock, I I I so admire your strength and your tenacity, and I admire that you were like what you just said, which is you don't give a fuck what other people think. You're gonna go and do what you need to do because you believe in it, because you think it's true. And whoever follows you and wants to be supported by you and wants to learn from you will. And if nobody does, then nobody does. Like that's okay, then you figure out what you're gonna do next. But you can't let people stop you. You just can't.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

I think that's everything in life.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Like, like, how many notes did you get along the way?

SPEAKER_01 34:55

I still get them, and I still yeah, I still get them. I still get them all the time. And I just now I I but I it's taken me a long time, much longer than I'm older than you by far. And it took me too long to realize that um what other people thought of my education or my career path or my success or my my my my image or my you know shape, face, body, whatever, just doesn't matter. Like it it's mine. It it doesn't belong to them, it belongs to me. And so you you have to it takes time.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

It's a pretty cool feeling.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

It's a cool feeling when you get there. It it does feel very rewarding, but it is difficult to do. Is there something you want to say to our audience? Because you have so much wisdom to share about how they can live their lives more authentically and and without fear.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Oh goodness.

SPEAKER_01 35:52

No pressure.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

I think we have a tendency in life to not look at the 50,000 things we do well and just dwell on the one thing we do bad or the one negative that happened, or that one that no. Like, you know, for every opportunity I get, there's a thousand no's. Um but I I'm trying to learn myself, and I still do it because uh a lot of my career is intertwined with my personal life, so it becomes the the no's can be personal and they feel personal. But what I've learned and what I'm trying to do and what I guide other people to do is write down all the good.

unknown 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Start there. And and whether you want to call that gratitude or whatever, but start writing down positive things that you do. And and they'll start to drown out that one thing you screwed up on. Like every I you speak a lot. I'm sure there's times you're like, I wish I would have said that different. I wish I would have. So what? You're the only one who noticed. But what about the 50 things you said phenomenally in that speech? You know, focus on that and learn from the mistakes, but focus on the positives and they'll keep building.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

I mean, that is an incredible amount of wisdom. And I hope wherever you are in your journey in life that this has helped you to figure out how you can make your life more effective and how you can live a life that's more authentic. Um, I would encourage you all to follow Brock on social media. He just got married, and we didn't even get to chalk about that, but follow him. Great pictures, great, uh, like great everything about what you're doing. I admire and respect so much. So thank you so much for joining us, and thanks everybody for joining us on this episode, and we'll see you next time.