Arlene Is Alone with Meredith MacNeill

Meredith MacNeill—award-winning Canadian actress, comedian, and co-creator of Baroness von Sketch Show and Small Achievable Goals—joins Arlene for a sharp and unflinching conversation about the patriarchy, identity, and the insecurities women have been taught to carry. They dive into the complicated relationship between identity and work, the shame that was never ours to begin with, and the uncomfortable question of who actually benefits from women's insecurities. Funny, smart, and necessary—the kind of conversation women have been having privately for decades, brought into the open.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Oh hi, hi. There it is. So mad at this. Um This is Arlene and this is her podcast, but I'm introducing it.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Perfect.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

Go ahead, introduce it. There you go. Welcome to welcome to the podcast. It's not mine.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Hi everyone, it's Arlene Dickinson. Welcome to this week's episode of Arlene is alone.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Meredith McNeil is one of those people who's funny in a way you can't fake. You know her from Baroness on the Sketch Show, Pretty Hard Cases, and Small Achievable Goals, where she built a reputation for being fearless on screen. The kind of performer who go all the way to the edge of a scene and then a little further. This conversation goes somewhere else though. Meredith and Arlene get into the patriarchy and the standards women have been held to for centuries. They talk about what it means to linguist, where it comes from, and how much of it was never ours to carry. And they get into the complicated relationship that they each have with their work and their identity. And the pull Meredith feels to make something that actually means something. It's the kind of conversation that stays with you for days. Here's Arlene and Meredith.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Welcome to Arlene is alone. I am alone today with Meredith McNeil, who is amazing and funny as hell. We're not alone. No, we're not alone. We're together. We're together. We're Zionies twins. We're joined in the hip. So we were just talking because Meredith and I have known each other. How long have we known each other? Quite a while.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Quite a while. I've been a big fan for a long time and I do feel like we saw each other. I've always wanted to hang out with you. We're mutual friends with Alice and Grace. I think she worked with you before. And I was like, can I hang out with Arlene?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yes. So we We tried to get on your show, but you know, like I got stonewalled. Did you get stonewalled? Yeah. I said I That weren't me. Do you want to get on the show? Absolutely. I loved that. Okay, that's a that's a major loss. Yeah. That's okay. I mean, I'm You didn't try to get on the menopause show, did you? No, but I would have done that one too.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Good to know. I'll have to make another show. Menipo show's done. Menopause show's done.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Well, you heard me say how much I always wanted to be an actress. I always wanted to be an actor. Always. And and it was either be an actor or a social worker. Really? That's me, those things have nothing in common. But I wanted to be an actor because and then but I got kind of told I believed that- Tell me why first.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

What I find interesting about what what what was it about acting that you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 2:38

I think it was the ability to not live the the life I was in, but live Yes? You understand what I'm saying? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah? Yeah. I love that you got there so quickly. That took me like so many years of therapy.

unknown 2:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Well, it took me, it probably took me a lot of years of therapy too. But I I think it was more because I just understood that I could that's why I liked reading. I liked reading so much because it took me into another world. I could escape the world I was in, and I could live in this fantasy world that was um it was just it was just like uh take me away. And so I loved to read when I was a kid. And it felt like the same thing to me, like acting out of the way.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

I find this so extraordinary. Very similar to you. Um, my mouth is dry, so I need to lift the sides, and I'm just not gonna pretend that that's not happening. So here I go, and then it's done. Um, I remember I have a very vivid memory, and I was a big reader as well. Didn't have a lot growing up, but uh very lucky that literature was introduced very young. And I remember reading, I think I was in grade four, in my room, and I had a massive candy cane, and so happy, and I was reading Heidi. And I couldn't wait to go read Heidi, the book. Yeah, because I would lose myself in it. And it just and I remember that literature was like a really great way to escape, and that your connect to acting too is like another way to do it. And then what happened?

SPEAKER_00 3:56

So why didn't you I just didn't feel I was attractive enough. I I felt I didn't feel like I didn't have, you know, when you looked at the Hollywood stars back then, you know, I guess going back like 50 years ago, yeah, um, or more, 55 years ago, because I'm 69, um, the actors that uh actresses that I saw were all really beautiful. It was all it was it was it was like if I looked a certain way that I could be an actress. And and that's what I equated in my own head. And I think it was at the height of you know, magazines, you know, the 17 magazine and Cosmo and all of those magazines pushing this agenda of you had to be thin, you had to be blonde, you had to be beautiful, you had to be, you know, have a perfect body. Like there was just all of these things that just were not me. And so I didn't see myself there. And it wasn't until later when I saw like actresses like you know, Kathy Bates or you know, or Meryl Streep, or like I mean Meryl Streep is beautiful, but she's not traditional beautiful. I think that, yeah. Yeah, and and saw them, wait a minute, like you know, you can be. And and I just was too but by that point I was it was too late.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

It's funny, it's illustrating like how again, you know, we were talking about that earlier, it's like who does it serve? Who does it serve that you can only be this one thing and look you need to look this one way, and then that can, you know, change the trajectory of like the outside impresses of the world sort of telling you like what do you think this job is? And I think for acting, um what you said, you know, I didn't see myself there. And I think that one of the things when I was grateful enough to be able to make money and pay for my kid at this job was I I had the exact same thing growing up, obviously. You know, you were saying it was creating space where you women do see themselves. Like what does it look like when you do write content or you do tell stories that who does it serve, Meredith? Like, who who do Who does it serve to silence us? Yeah, the patriarchy. Yeah. Like and and also I think capitalism. I think that you know, if they don't know how to sell to you, then what are they gonna do? Right. So, I mean, that's my theory because there's so many question marks over stuff that seems so normal. Like why is the world the way it is? And why are women silenced? Why does this happen? Why is femicide on the rise? Like, I actually can't take that at all. Like, why does the rape academy exist? Why is it okay to have Andrew Tate speak? Like, who does it serve? Right, right. And in the end, it's not serving, and when I say the patriarchy, it affects both men and women. And then what controls the patriarchy? And even when am I allowed to talk about podcasts? I just previously witnessed, why not? And then you can cut it out. But like even when you and Sarah were talking, again, we were talking about the fashion line and how women dress and at a certain age, and then I was like, chimed in and was like, well, again, who does it serve to tell women how to dress?

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Right. And wh and why do you have to, you know, when someone says this is not appropriate to wear when you're over 50 or whatever, like, are you kidding me? I'll wear whatever I want to wear, like whenever I want to wear it. Like I have, but yet there's this judgment that's kind of casting it, right? Who does it serve? It serves, it serves marketing, it serves uh it serves, you know, the culture of um capitalism, you know, selling more clothes, selling more things, you know, to people who beauty products, you know, whatever, right? It's all about making yourself look younger. The that whole anti-aging, you know, we all fall for it. And I I mean I I like I don't care um what people do there to your body. You do whatever you want. It's your like I control very little in this world, but I control the top of my head to the bottom of my feet, to as far as my arms can go. That's what I control, my myself. And what I do with myself is nobody's business.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Nobody's business.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

You know, but yet it has become everybody's business. And when you're a public figure, like you are, like I am, like Sarah is, and others that have been on the show, you are you're out there. Everybody feels the right to judge you, whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

Yeah, like you want to start a financial revolution, you want to change the world, women, like yourself. Yeah, like how you look, you will destabilize a financial institution. Yeah. And that's not saying that you know you can't take care of yourself, but if you think all the marketing and everything, how uh so much money is made off women's shame. So much money is made off I am not good enough. And I think that I, you know, you kind of you know, me saying that isn't some like new idea. It's not like anyone lives is gonna be like, oh, she's brilliant. Like, but I think working in the way that we do, and I know we do different types of shows, but in the industry that we work in, I think it's in your face a lot.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Oh, for sure. I mean, you're constantly being reminded of your age, your your sh everything. You you you're constantly reminded of it. And people think it's okay to make jokes about it. Like I get I get a lot of um, you know, on on the show, like my fellow, you know, my fellow panelists on the show, you know, they say things they think it's funny, but it's it's all ageist, you know, and and I just sit there and think, you would never ever say that to a man. You would never ever say that to a man. But yet you feel it's okay to say it to me. And they think it's funny. And I just kind of go, man, it's not that funny.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

First of all, I'm sorry. That's terrible. Yeah. And I think what scares me, and not just scares me, like terrifies me, is what you're saying that that's the problem, is that on a very basic level, they think it's okay to throw that much disrespect your way. Yeah. And then they call it funny when everybody knows, like, well, who's laughing? Right. There's only one side of the room that's laughing. And even some of the men probably feel uncomfortable with that joke. Right. And so, again, growing up as a young girl and walking through this world and listening to like all this cock rock that you're supposed to be okay with, where misogyny, you know what I mean? Like lyrics where women were being taken down and we're like rocking out to it, like so confusing. Like just the way we were put through the world, cut to where you're at, and then people are making jokes about your age reaction, and you're like, oh, when does it stop?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

And you're like, oh, right, never. Never. I am having a day, and I just want everyone in my I had my shirt on inside out on the previous podcast. I'm interested.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

I love you even more. Did you when did you know when you went to take it off?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

I went to, I I went out and I was talking, saying goodbye to Sarah in the hallway, and and I looked down and I thought, I've got this shirt on.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Well, you know what's funny? I almost left. Well, listen, girl. Perfect. I left to come see you without a bra on. Okay, well, that's that's not that it, I mean, you I breastfed and like, you know, I'm 50. They're still like I'm proud of them. They're still looking all right, but it would have been like, it would have been a moment. Now I'm like have to prove it's like, I'm wearing a bra. She's wearing a bra. I have no bra. Everyone's like, I look I look amazing. If you don't have a big thing, I don't give a fucking shit. I don't give a fucking shit anymore.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Like I honestly who cares? Like who is it? Like you don't want to wear a bra, don't wear a bra.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

But that's what I felt. Like, and I don't know in terms of your like work and how it works for you, but I felt in the stories that I was creating from Baroness all the way to small achievable goals that um, you know, you we were called like groundbreaking or all these things were happening, and I hope this comes up okay. And like I am obviously so proud of those shows, and all the women and I've worked with were absolutely brilliant and learned so much. But I remember hearing that word, and you know, you should be thrilled and excited, and I remember feeling I'm not gonna cry, but like a little bit sad about it because it shouldn't be groundbreaking when 51% of the population are going through the things that we're talking about. And so it was a really uh interesting time working in Canada and then having that happen and then having those those feelings because you're kind of like, how is it groundbreaking to talk about what I saw my neighbor go through, my mom, my best friend, and what we talk about as women? And that the the thing that's groundbreaking is that they allowed it on television.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, that's it's a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

That's what's groundbreaking. So let's call it what it is.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, uh you go back to the Golden Girls. I was talking about this the other day. Like the Golden Girls were the early version of, you know, like what was that? I mean, they were 40 years old, first of all. They weren't even that old. Well, wasn't Sophia the the she played the eldest, but she was the youngest of the whole group. Yeah, like it it's insane. You know, like that we could they couldn't put an older person on television? Like why? Like why I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

And it was a major hit. It was a major hit. And they talked about everything. They talked about sexual assault, they talked about menopause, like, didn't they? There was an extraordinary show.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

And why did it just die? Why is there another why is there not an well, I guess Baroness is you know, I guess the shows that you're doing are the new era of the Golden Girls or the National Trevor Burrus.

SPEAKER_03 12:20

I guess so, but they're not hits like that. Like they're not international. You know, like the Golden Girls ran for how many years? Whatever, say multiple years. It was an international hit, like it was iconic. Is that because you're it's a Canadian show? I can't speak to that, like, or they're or they're kind of shit. Like, you know what I mean? I'm happy to own, I'm happy to own that the shows aren't good enough, but like small achievable goals a show about menopause.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

They are good enough. They should be everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

It was just thought we've it's not being renewed, found out today. And then I'm okay with it, only because I only wanted to do two years on it. So I wrote myself out on the second season. She I wrote about suicide ideation in Parimenopause and Menopause, but still, I still feel like um kind of to your point, when Baroness left, or whenever, like, where is the other show coming in that's talking about where we see women and where where those stories. I still don't feel we're now why does it have to be comedy? I don't know. And I'm trying to think. I want to be careful, like for me, I never you know, I never worked in comedy. No? No. Because you were trained, you were trained in London, I trained, uh yeah, I trained in like I was classically, so I started in a small town, you know, in a fishing village. Well, not fishing village, but um the one I live in now is a fishing community. But um in Amherst, and I learned theater. I started to do theater there. Nova Scotia. In Nova Scotia. And then I went to the Royal Academy and studied theater, and then trained in theater, and then only near the very I was there for almost 15 years. Very end, I did a little bit and then started Baroness. So I'm still sort of new to sort of comedy. But in terms of your question of like, why do those I guess there's other well, there's tons of other shows that aren't comedy that are talking about it, right? Like in those days. Well, the Golden Girl, well, I guess Golden Girls Comedy. Made, wasn't that that was about a single mom. I may destroy you. I think Britain does it really well.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Right. Britain does I I think I think BBC and Britain do an excellent job of uh uh the in in if everything from their journalists down through their actors and act, you know, like everybody on Talent is they they Coronation Street. You know, I mean, how old is Rita on Coronation Street? She's in her 80s, uh, I think. Uh do you watch you don't watch Coronation Street? My best mate is on it, so yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Shut up. I love who you could wait for this girl. Who wait for this? So we went to Rada together. She's not on it anymore, but she did a stint. And I have to say, Kate, I'm allowed to say this on air. I taught her how to throw a punch over a bar. Because yes, I can do that. Call me if you need to fight. Um, she played Becky. Really? She played Becky on Coronation Street for years and she was the bartender. I know who Becky is. So Becky is like, yeah, she in real life, she's like my best friend.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Oh my God. I okay, now you've just gone up. I mean, you were already up here, but I I want to I wanna if somebody said to me, you can be a guest on Coronation Street. You wouldn't pass out a guy. I would go, okay, that because my kids all know, like, I watch Coronation Street like religiously and I have for 30 years.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Do you remember like speaking of when you were growing up and you were like, oh, I don't look a certain way, I don't know that that's for me. I remember young and there would be Coronation Street on, and I remember thinking, and it was, I was like, oh, that must be a drama because it wasn't as over there they're considered a soap opera. But soap operas when we grew up.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, we're like general hospital on days of the day. They did those women didn't look the same. No, those are the things.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

So I remember Coronation Street was sort of this relief of like, you know what I mean? Of like, oh my God, it's it's it's incredible. But yes, I would say those countries, and I think training there and working there was the reason I felt confident to create Baroness, was that it could be done. Because I was coming from a place where there was like Ab Fab, uh Don French, Victoria Wood, like I was already in amongst women that were consistently of middle-aged women telling their stories in certain ways. And then when I came to Canada as a single mom, living with my parents, because it's cool, um, that I didn't see myself represented on television.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

And so you set out to change that.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

I thought it would be well, it's interesting. Um, when you have, I mean, this is where I'm like, I was just talking to your daughter about it. I was like, God, I gotta, I'm always hustling like new job and what I want to do, but it's pretty hard to give up on the thing that you know it's when you get to talk about the things that you want, it's pretty hard to shift.

SPEAKER_04 16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

And I think I don't know what was in me because I didn't have a job, I had no money, and I just came home with a suitcase. But I was like, oh, I don't see this here, I'm gonna write that. So like when my yeah, so when my daughter would sleep or whatever, I would just put that into place. And so it's extraordinary that when I look back, that I'm like to be so desperate. But I do remember I had like a resume for Tim Hortons, like out that I was like, I can work at the Tim Hortons. And I had a successful career in Britain, so it was kind of like a bit of a and also really humiliating because um I raised money across Canada to go to school, so I felt like a massive failure. I felt like a massive failure.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Why? Like, so tell explain to that to me. You you raised money here in Canada. You go to school in Canada. In England, yeah. And and and what did you do? Like what how did you raise c money?

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Uh I started like a campaign with my sister who was amazing. She studied PR at the time. She was still at university, I think. And when I got into the Royal Academy, it was really difficult as a North American to get in there. They only take two every whatever.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

But I think one of the things is I think normally when you go, they'll choose someone that probably has a bit of money behind them. Yeah. Because if not, they were like, you can come, but you it's like $60,000.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

Or go, and I didn't want to give up the opportunity. So my sister and I, uh, she's amazing, so incredibly smart, so sweet. We started a campaign called Um Based on the Vodka. Like, what were we thinking? And so we called it Based on the Vodka? Absolute Rada. Instead of like You know what it looks like just absolute vodka, absolute Rada. And then I remember the first thing we did is I did a radio show on in Halifax, and I s to get into Rada, you have to sing a song, and I'm not a good singer. And I sang a Hank Williams Jr. song, Why Don't You Love Me Like You Used To Do? And I remember being interviewed in Halifax, and this is how it started, and I made someone like someone was like, I was being kind of like funny on the radio. From the East Coast, right? Everybody's kind of funny, right? Yeah. And then that's how it started, and then people started to call in. But I can tell you that um it is like it's like I can't move on from it. Why? I think it's like the where I grew up, I saw people that deserved all the um things that happened to me and being able to study in a different country, and I got there on the backs of other people donating money. And like some people that were mowing lawns were giving me money. So it's like I'm beyond grateful, but it's like I don't know how to say thank you enough.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Because it changed my life. Like I really don't know what I would have done, and that opportunity really only happened because of other people's kindness. And I don't know how you feel, but like the kindness of others is something that is just so overwhelming. And it's kind of um, I just probably need more therapy, like chasing a trap again, like I can't do enough to say thank, like I need to prove that it was worth their investment.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah, I I you know, and when you say that, I I I if somebody says to me, What kind of what is it that hits you the hardest when I'm in a conversation with somebody? It's it is somebody who shows compassion and empathy for entire for me, and I don't know how to deal with it. I I I I yeah, it's it's very like it's it overwhelms me. That's what's just happening on your podcast. Yeah, and I and it makes me cry too. Like I get very emotional, like I get because you're showing kindness to me. And I'm and I don't know when people show kindness to me, I you're gonna make me cry. You don't know how to take it because you're so especially if you're a person who's used to giving and being the person who's helping and taking care of others, yeah. When somebody shows you kindness, it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

It's really difficult. Have you have you talked to have you gone back to the community and said Yeah, I said thank you, but I need to do more, and I think that what I don't understand about myself, it's like so a lot of the work I'll write or I'll do always just tries to deal with shame. I use human a lot, like I just want to eradicate shame, and I'm like, oh my god, you know, I didn't know what to be the stereotype of like I you know that I'm trying to heal myself, but I uh as I get older, I'm kind of like you, but I'm like, fuck it, I've just I think that might be part of it. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_04 20:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Um, but like it's really important to me to see people, to tell the stories that I see, it whether it be comedy and whether it just be a sketch about I shouldn't say just, you know, one of the biggest physical sketches is about body dysmorphia when she's trying to eat all the food and stuff. But yes, I've gone back. I said thank you. Two women really introduced me to theater when I was there, and they were so supportive, and they put on I'm so sorry. Like, yeah, I've gone back and I I honestly I have gone back, but I don't know how to say thank you. And then for a lot of the times I wouldn't do interviews because I didn't want to talk about it. Because I don't it's because I don't know what will ever be good enough. And then and it's funny because no one's asking for it. It's again, it's the it's an act of kindness.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

It's an act of and Was there something that happened when you were raising that cap that money that you felt like you that like that you weren't like that the that people didn't think it was legit? Or like I what was it? Like what was it that's making you feel I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

I feel like I think I just I think there's I'm not trying to say I'm not good at my job or but I saw people just as good at whatever and I I hadn't I saw people that didn't have the same opportunities.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

But they didn't get on the radio or on shows and sing a song and do the work and you know come up with an idea to raise capital. So that like you shouldn't feel like I know you're so sweet.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

I just need more therapy on it. But I think it's again, it's that act of generosity and kindness that like sort of like changed my life. And I and I think the way that I try to say thank you is like I take great responsibility. And even though I know you're like not one is like, oh, it's comedy, it's whatever, but I do genuinely try to create content that is a thank you.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah. You know? You do though. Like I I mean, I remember the first time I watched Baroness, I thought, I I mean, first of all, I laughed so hard, and I thought, oh my God, somebody finally understands me, you know, and somebody who it was like everything you like, I I'll never forget the one the one show where you guys had if somebody's in the hospital and and it was she came in and plucked the hair. Oh, Rora Brown. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

I mean, that just things like that. Like, you know, like nobody wants to talk about chin hair, right? When you're a woman, but there you were saying, you know, a good one.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Oh, yeah, we talked about it all.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah, you talked about it all.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

And I think that like those three women and all the writers on that show and that time, I you have to remember, I was like back from England. I didn't really know the scene in Canada or in Toronto at all, because I'd left when I was like 19 or 20. And I was like, this Canada is badass. I was like, what the fuck? Because we were throwing down, having a crack. I those Jennifer Whalen, Aurora Brown, Carolyn Taylor, I mean geniuses. Genius. I mean absolute. And they were all from Second City, Toronto. I did not have that. My training was like the Royal Shakespeare. But it all worked. It actually wasn't dissimilar. And to your point, like in the writing room, there was such a freedom of like, we never once, we didn't write, yeah, you know what? We didn't write with any fear. Yeah. We write, we led with what we wanted to say. And I think that as I get older and continue to work, that's not always the case. And I took that time for granted. And I realized in England it was a different scenario, and where I was coming from was a different scenario. But those women and what we wanted to say, it was like we laughed, like hopefully you did. And I think we wanted to create content that felt like we were having a conversation with you. Because you know when you met your girlfriends, you talk differently. And you talk differently and you laugh so hard, and like that was kind of the energy behind it. Are you still friends with all of them? Yeah, I love I love, I mean, I don't see some of them I don't see as much, but I have like I love them all. Like they are incredible, and also like it's such a deep respect for all of them, too. And I think what they taught me, because I didn't come from the land of sketch, and so they were all very generous. I remember sitting beside Jennifer Whalen and like, and then like she would teach me, and um, and Carolyn was extra extraordinary, like so smart. I think Aurora Brown is one of the best actresses I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

She's very good, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

I've agreed I've ever seen. And I think we got really excited to be like, what's gonna fill the space when Baroness goes?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

And and the band broke up.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Well, we did, and also give to my mind was a bit of a British model. Like we didn't want to keep going for like we decided we were like we were like, yeah, it was like five, I think we did five years, and then we wrote that much content that they made a sixth year. Oh wow. Oh yeah, we're nuts. I think the first year we wrote 700 sketches. Oh, come on. That's middle-aged women at work. Crazy. We knew at our age in our forties, and none of us at the time, we all had worked, but I would say none of us were well known in that way. If I get that wrong, I'm so sorry, I love you all.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

But like You were well known in a different way, but like girls.

SPEAKER_03 25:56

We were the fact that we were able to get it, we knew that we getting a TV show in your 40s to talk about was huge. Yeah. And we did our best just to like not let anyone down. So we worked in that way. We worked like there were 700 sketches. I think we only filmed. Get as much out as you could. We got as much out as we could, and then and then I have to say the CBC was different at that time because I've seen it go through a different change. Like so Heather Conway was like there at that time. Um, so we just pushed and pushed and got the content on, and we did. It's funny what they said no to and what they said yes to. And at the time I remember taking for granted, I was like, I can't believe they're saying no to that. And then when you look back, you're like, oh, we really being here longer in Canada, I didn't realize how well we did to get certain stuff on.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah, no, you got stuff on that I couldn't believe that you got on. But I I I feel like we a little bit about drag I mean, Drag Zen is a very different thing for sure. But I was actually thinking about this this week because we just wrapped season twenty-one. Oh my god. And I was just thinking about what a privilege it is. Because, you know, 21 years, 21 seasons of any show in Canada is just I think well, I know for sure we're the longest running reality show on on television in Canada. 21 years. 21 years. And and um we might be one of the longest. I mean, there's uh there's some documentary series that are longer running, but like Murdoch Mysteries is 20 seasons, and you know, I it's it's a long time and it's such a privilege. It it is such a privilege. And I don't take it for granted. Like I, you know, I can moan about having to do the show and it's you know it's time and happens. But but you you come off and you go, wow, like that was a huge production. It employs, you know, over a hundred people. It it it's a great crew. These a lot of them are back season after season after season on the crew. I love that crew so much. Like I love them. They're they you know, because their job, they they work hard to make me look good. And I know that that's not easy. But they I do make you look pretty goddamn good. They do, they do I I really respect all you camera crew and sound crew and production crew. Like it's not easy. And yeah, it's it's it's such a collaborative effort, isn't it? It's such a colla I don't think people understand how collaborative it is. And also how it becomes part of who you are. Like for you as an actress, though I think it's even more deep because you it is your job full-time. It's not drags and isn't my job full-time. Right. So I have other identities that I can relate to, but that's your career, right? That's everything.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

I would like what you what you have. I'm trying to be more like I'm trying to be more like Arlene Dickinson. Yeah, well, good. Because I'm gonna try to do that. Like, I think that's one of the reasons. First of all, I agree with you. I'm uh I think it's uh it's so good to be so grateful to be able to make television because it's a rare thing to do, and not everyone gets to do it. And to how collaborative it is, and like if you're on the outside of it, people don't realize everyone has to work together and to do it for 21 years. I mean, like that is absolutely incredible. But also what's interesting about you is you're right, to you can look at it and have this, you know, like you say, you can have a little moan of like, oh, I'm exhausted or I gotta get up early. But the fact that you, the healthiest people I know in the business have things outside of that. Because when that becomes your be-all and end-all, especially in financials, then it becomes it be can become quite strange, maybe, relationship to it. So it's nice to have something else going on that you can look at and go, I like that, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

And what it also happens in television, it's very hard to um, unless you own the property, you know, un it's it the network has so much control over what you just said, what you can, you know, you surprise you got what you got on, but they control your future, they to tell you what to they can tell you so much. They don't it's you don't have the freedom you think you have when you're on television.

SPEAKER_03 29:41

I think that's my biggest I think I have this naivete where I forget where I don't understand that someone's controlling me. Yeah. I always wonder, I should call them. I always wonder what the broadcasters think of me. I feel like I gave them a hard time. I'm gonna call them. I'm gonna find out. Like, do you feel do they love like do you give them a hard time? Like, do you I think the broadcasters But do you ever say no?

SPEAKER_00 30:04

I think it's hard to say no because you they they do have I mean it's different, right? It's different. I think Canada lacks um a star system um in television and in movies. Um in Canada, but in particular in television, it lacks it lacks a star system. And a star system has to be built by the broadcaster and by the network. And um I I don't think and I think uh unfortunately talent is seen as replaceable here. Um, you know, if Meredith won't take that job, then somebody else will take that job.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Oh my god, like yeah, like it is not unheard of when people go, you know, you'll you know, you'll you've done okay, you'll go work again. I'm like, no, that's not how it works. Like you can easily just never work again. Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Exactly. Easily never work again again. Never work again. So you have to be careful about saying no. But I want to you you said something I didn't I didn't realize. You went to London how how old were you when it when you went to London?

SPEAKER_03 31:00

I went to university at Dalhousie, I did theater there, and then because and then but I always wanted to go to Rada, like since those two women in my community told me about the school. So I was like, I'll probably go there. You know where you're cracking again. So I was in England from um I started in '98 and I was there, and then I got pregnant with my daughter there, and then I came home. And were you in a relationship or you just Yeah, I it was time to leave.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

Okay, so it was time to leave, and you said I'm gone.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

And then I'm gonna start over, and I just had to start from zero. And I really thought that because I had, you know, a pretty good resume that it would be I mean, I had no money and I had to, you know, one suitcase, but I kind of thought it would be okay, but it wasn't. I remember at the time I couldn't even get a general audition at Neptune Theater and Halifax. Like, I it really hit me. I was like, I got I got nothing. It didn't matter where I went. And I think to be in the community where I'd raised was in a different community then, but in the same province where I'd raised money, I was just like, this is Yeah. This is that would have been a microscope on you for sure, right? Well, it's interesting. I thought it was, but this is how generous people are. No one said a word to me. No one that's something I brought on. This this is the stories that I tell myself. I have never heard anyone in my life give me a hard time about raising money to go to school. Not once. I have done this all to myself.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Nobody will.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Yeah, because it's fine, because it's normal. Like it's not normal, but like it's okay, it's what people do. Yeah. But I have made this whole story of shame and that I don't deserve it, and kindness, like that is my own crap to deal with. But yes, I was in England and then I came home to Canada.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

And how old is your daughter now?

SPEAKER_03 32:34

She's 15.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

She's 15. So you're still you're right in momhood. You're in the middle of being a mom to a teenager. Yeah, and like full-time single mom. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Yeah. And then writing feminist shows. Yeah. And is she what is she like? Is she on the feminist side? I don't know that she has a choice. Yeah. Like she's always because her and I have moved, I think, 47 times because of money. Like just No, you're exaggerating. No. Forty you've moved 47 times. But you have to remember, so most of the moves would be like, oh my God, I'm gonna get her kicked out of the Ontario school system. It's legal, I swear. Um I never knew with Baroness that we would get picked. It was year to year, right? Yeah. And then m all the shows I've been on, I've never been on a show where like, oh, you know, you know, you have the show for three years, it's like year-to-year pickup. So we did Baroness, and then I moved back home to because I didn't want to spend all my money in Toronto. Right. I didn't know when I'd get another thing, and then we got another season, so she would move between two schools and two different houses. And then when I came to Toronto, we had to find a new house every time. So the stress was like unbelievable. And so we'd go back to the same house, but then when we came to Toronto, we'd have to move. But when she started high school, I was like, I'm gonna, we've got to stay in one place. Stay in one place. So my daughter's done two different schools for but if you're starting over financially, like what are you gonna do? Like what choice you know what I mean? And that's the other thing I think that I kept quiet. I my circle's quite tight. I didn't go out a lot. Like, I think as a parent, I just didn't want to tell anybody what I was. I was always felt like I was bad, and I just don't want women to feel so fucking bad all the time.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Meanwhile, you were supporting yourself and your daughter, and you were you were like a sole provider. Like you're not all you're seeing is the negative side of it. You're not seeing anything that's positive about what you did that most people could not ever have done.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

Yeah, and it's funny that that's where, you know, and I'm trying to get better now, and thank you for that, but like it is funny how you know, um, I mean, I say it in the show as Chris, I've got to leave the show because I don't even know how to take care of myself.

SPEAKER_04 34:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

And it's funny the day to day of that, of like I'm out there promoting like feminist content and women to speak for themselves, and that I'm still giving myself a really hard time. But don't all women do that? Do you do that? Do all of you please call in? Like, does anybody some women have it together, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:47

I don't know. I think I think I think I think all women do it, and I think women can be harder on other women more than anybody else can be. I think women can be some of your your worst enemies are gonna be another woman. And that's that's really a hard thing to say, but I I think it's unfortunately true. My experience would be yours. Yeah. And I found that really hard. Yeah, it's very hard. And and so you you tend to kind of and and there's just so much judgment on every level. If you're if you're ambitious, you're called bitchy and aggressive. If you're you know, if you're direct, you're called, you know, like, you know, uh ice queen. If you it you know, the these are it's a common complaint, but it's a c common complaint because it's true. And generally that's coming from another woman more than it's ever coming from men. Now, men can be their own kind of, you know, demeaning and and difficult and and you know, misogynistic. Like I'm not excusing, you know, male behavior that's horrific. But I will say that women can be and have been some of my hardest challenges because I am very I am very direct. And people read direct as somehow being awful. And and I and and I am very ambitious, and they read ambitious somehow unfeminine. And you know, like it's just it's a very weird thing.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Well, like I what does that quote? What is it? Like that it's nothing more terrifying than an ambitious woman, you know what I mean? And I this is all I've learned along the way about that because I started to feel bad. Like, you know, you want to hide it because I obviously am a big supporter of women, you are. And then I started to realize, well, we were all brought up under the same banner. So the patriarchy affects everybody in a diff, like in the same way. So it is learned behavior. Yeah. And it again, who does it serve? And this is what I, you know, when you do have a female bully or it's happening, again, I use that quote all the time like when I can't get a handle on it, my nervous system is like, because I like you, like I would find that more depressing than being bullied by a man. But then I would like go home and I'm like, who does it serve for a woman to be mean to another woman? It's not serving her. You know, it's weird when we talk about the broadcaster being in control, and then there's this whole other big brother sort of element. I just feel like it's I don't know about you, but when it does happen, um it feels like a bigger sense of betrayal.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

I don't know what you're but like It does.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

It feels it feels it it's like it's like being um blindsided. It it just it kind of comes like, where did that come from? And and that's not to say that women can't criticize other women's you know behavior if it's wrong. Like of course, of course you can. I mean you can criticize anybody for anything, and if they're doing something that's inappropriate, um okay. Um but it's not okay when it's just and when it's just them being, you know, um in charge, and somehow you don't like that because you don't see that their characteristics that are very normally accepted in a male world cannot be applied in a to a woman. And so that's the stuff that I get really most angry about.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

And I still deal with it. Like how do you, as someone that has is ambitious, highly intelligent, has done extraordinarily well, I don't know how many businesses you own, you are going to be dealing with bullies. Like, you know that shock factor when you're like, oh, is it true what they say when you start to do well in people? Like, how do you as a person move through that type of behavior?

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Um I think I think there's two things I'd say that and and and something I I I've wanted to say for a while, and I haven't quite figured out how to say it. Um I think that the success I've had, you know, like everything, gets greatly exaggerated, you know, in the media. Like I I I you know, like I like you get I have been successful. I'm not saying that all that I'm not successful, I am successful, but everything's it's like see somebody would look at you as an actress and say, Well, you're very successful, you've made a shitload of money. Look how famous you are.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

You know, and you're like, uh, where am I living next week?

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Right, right. But that's not what they see. They see a certain thing. And so while I am very successful, you know, like there's levels of success. So I'll always say that I'm not I I've got more I can do, there's more success to be had. That's my ambition. I want to do more. I want, and it's not because I want money. It's because I want to be able to do more in the world. I want to give back to the world, I want to contribute to the world, I want to live my life fully, I want to enjoy my life. I I think now in terms of how many summers have I got left, you know, like you think that way. Right. And so when I get to when it gets boiled down to how much money you have, that um and and and it and and probably amplified in a way that doesn't even feel real. Like, you know, like I'm kind of, well, okay, I'm successful, but like I don't know why you have to think you have to talk about whether I have a million dollars or ten million dollars, like whatever the number is. It's a very weird dynamic. And so it's hard to be on television as a successful person, a successful woman. And be bullied. And be bullied for your age, and to have to always feel like you're comparing your wealth against everybody else's wealth. I don't care how much everybody else I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Well, that's your freedom, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 39:58

I don't care. Like I don't care if, you know, they have a billion and they have a hundred million, and they have ten million, and they I I couldn't care less. It's none of my business. Right. Um, but that that's the way we define success. We define it through money. I think that's kind it's a long way to get there. It's a long way for me to say, I don't like being defined by how much money I do or don't have. Right. I want to be defined by who I am and what I do and and the jobs I help create and the people I help and the things I do. And and I'm and I'm a very complicated person. I know that. I know I'm a very complicated person. You're a very complicated person. Why are we always brought down to she's rich or she's an actress or she's this? Why is it a definer that is nothing to do with who we are?

SPEAKER_03 40:41

I don't know. I've often wondered that when people makes people feel safe, like to put you in a box. Like maybe. And like I it's interesting what you're saying. First of all, I'm sorry, that is, you know, I always like to validate someone when they're like, yeah, like that is actually hard to deal with that experience. Like when you are defined by something that's out of your something you should, you know, you have gratitude towards to be defined by the thing. You're like huge gratitude that I but also, but at the same time, you're like, that's not who I am, and it is hard that you can't control that narrative. And you're like, that's who I am. Like I get much like you, like I write, I showrun, I create content. And and we were just talking about it too, of like how easily you're defined. They just want you to be the one thing. They just want you to be But we're complex. But it's like, but like everybody else, we've got many layers to us, and it is funny that when you do do something different, I don't know, Mit ask you, like, that it's not shocking for someone, or like, oh, you can do this as well. Like when you started this and this podcast is doing very well. Are people surprised? Like, are you feeling that you can go outside the box and people, or do you don't even pay attention to it? Like, do you get like, oh, we can't believe it, or you're like, or people are like, oh no, that's expected, or you've done really well.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Um, I think this shows me very interesting. When we when my daughter really came up with the idea, and when we talked about it, we said, okay, let's let's do it because it would be fun to do together, and I, you know, I think we saw there was an opportunity to do something different. And at the time I wanted to talk about being single. It was really about, you know, single life. And it has evolved into like a much more of a the type of conversation we're having where, you know, like the notion of being alone with somebody is is that it's okay to be alone, but you can, you know, it's not I'm not lonely because I am alone. I'm alone with other people or I'm alone by myself. Either way, I am comfortable with who I am. And I think I've lost the train of thought, but I was like, You know what? I would say that.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

It's very moving that you say that. Like the fact that it was about being single.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Like that is revolutionary. That you're a woman is like saying, I do not need to. I feel validated. I don't feel validated by having a partner. I feel validated just by being alone. So that already is It started there.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

It started with it started with that, and then then why did then how did the show do? I think was the question, like, what do I feel like when people ask you about it? It started off as that, and then it just started taking off, and people were replying to us and watching it, and then I kind of go, Well, wait a minute, we've we've got an audience. And then it became, well, do we need sponsors? And then, you know, we haven't even tried to get a sponsor. We are looking for sponsors. We haven't even tried to get a sponsor. Right now, everyone's calling. Yeah, that's right. Your phone's blowing up, your phone's blowing out. Call 1-800, you know. Um I've just been funding this myself as a passion project, to be perfectly honest with you. It became something that I just love doing. Mared, I love these conversations. I get so much out of them. I feel I feel like I've like grown so much from them. So I love that.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

But that's what I love about what you're saying, is that you allowed it, even though talking about single, I could do it all day long. Um, or talk about dating or the love life. But like, but I think the fact that you allowed it to evolve, and that I don't know. I feel like no matter what anybody says in the state of the world, like the truth is so attractive. And so is authenticity. So the fact that you're like, this is the thing it started with, and that's a really great thing for it to start with, and it could have always stayed that way. And then you felt by being inspired, or what I'm hearing, is like by the conversations that you're having, or like you who you were meeting, that you were like, oh, I want to talk about multiple things. And that's probably why the show is gaining success, is because you're you're not making it stay in one lane. It's sort of like being like, this is where I want to move and this is where I want to shift.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

And we want people on the and we've had people on the show from all areas of life. And and I also find that fascinating. There's so many great Canadians who who, when you peel back the onion, are just such great, interesting people. People don't talk about that shit anymore. We don't spend time with each other. We just we just you know well Arlene, she's you know, she's she's she's you know a rich investor. That's uh that's just one thing I do. That and and rich is all relative. And by the way, money is an outcome. It's not it's not a purpose for me. And and so I think being able to have these conversations where I feel like I'm revealing myself as much as you're revealing yourself really matters to me.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Oh my God, you're the best. And I think it matters to everybody. I think also to have that freedom of like just not being your like not allowing anyone to define you. Yes. Because you know, when I creeped in on the Sarah and Russ, oh my god, they were like certain, I'll talk to us like yes, yes, please. And and just witnessing you speak to her and just having watching that conversation for like you know, five minutes. That platform of allowing someone to be a human being to talk about the things that they want to talk about. Like, it's pretty incredible for everyone, and I can see for you, but you didn't, but you allowed it to happen. You weren't like, no, please just talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Being single, no, I I think relationships are interesting. And I think um I I do I give credit to my daughter, who she she has put up with a lot of shit with me through. I don't think it would be easy to work with your mom. Um, I think it would be very, very hard to work with your mom. Is it?

SPEAKER_02 45:55

It's I think we're just both very opinionated. You know, like not opinionated in a bad way, but I think we just uh I think it's hard because you can be your true self with your mom and your daughter. Yeah. So that brings out I think a side of you that is more authentic, and sometimes you're hardest on the people you love than people you don't know because you know you put on a facade for people you don't know. But I can be myself a thing. Like earlier we got upset with each other over something silly, but I also know her. Yeah, well, you were driving me nuts. But no, but I know her, so I can know and push the boundaries, and I know the kind of guests that she can connect with, so I think it gives that.

SPEAKER_03 46:35

But I think it's good too. Not that I want to encourage like, but I do think to create good content, I'm not saying everyone has to fight, but I'm not afraid of a hard conversation. And I feel like whether it be f and I think you're right, I think the best things can come from family, like there's no reason. But I think when you're not afraid of a difficult conversation, because and I know that I feel like I am a problem to people because I'm not afraid of a difficult conversation. No, I love that. At all. No. And I don't, and on screen, and what I want to write up, I don't got a problem with it. And also I don't hold it against you. And I don't mind changing my mind. Just tell me why. Yes. You know, and I think that that is I think like I don't know what I want to do next because I realize that sometimes the space that I work in, it isn't the place for difficult conversations. You know, and also the conversations I want to have or that you want to have, like I do find uh yeah, I don't know how to maneuver it completely in the world that we work in.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah, I mean, I I always said I couldn't be a politician because I I I'm very I I like I don't know why we can't talk about the things that we're not supposed to talk about. That whole elephant in the room thing where you uh you don't dare say anything that's gonna offend somebody because it's politically incorrect. I I don't understand that. Like, how do you solve problems if you don't like reveal the problem? If all you're gonna do is dance around it, then that problem's gonna sit there forever. So I'm a I'm with you.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Like the silence of like with someone is uh upset with me. Yeah. To say it. I I like if you want to kill if there's anybody out there would like to take me down, let me fall in love with you as a friend or as a person, and then just don't speak, get mad at me and then don't speak to me. Like that, the silent treatment is not something. You know when they're like, um, this is where I'm like, oh wait, I do need more therapy. When they're like, oh, you know, I want to take some space. I don't know if you're like that when people say I need to take space. I have had to learn what that means. Because I'm I you don't want to give them space? Fucking talk to me. What the fuck is the space? Do you know in my mind? And I the fuck is space, you can talk to me and tell me what's going on, I'm gonna figure it out. And I realized that that is not correct. Like it took me a long time. Like whenever I was in relationships, um, I would, which is very few. Did you date a lot?

SPEAKER_00 48:48

No. I mean, I dated up until I was probably 50s, early 50s, and I really don't date anymore.

SPEAKER_03 48:54

You might only date at like three people. Like three? Like, no, and like I had I love this, like, oh, I'm not talking about now, I'm talking about it. Like, I yeah, like I had the guy that made my daughter. Yep. And then after that, there was a guy from town for a bit, and then but nothing's just because I moved away. And then that's it, and then like two two others, and now I'm with someone, but like well now you're with somebody.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 49:18

Yeah, he's got a call. Although it's weird, I was just saying he's from Calgary, he's from where you're from. Oh. I know what is that. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Um, how long was he? How long did he live in Calgary?

SPEAKER_03 49:28

He was born there.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

He was born there. And is he still there?

SPEAKER_03 49:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

How is that gonna work? Well, it depends if Alberta still stays part of the country. I know, like what is going on there? I don't even want to talk about it. I get angry just talking about it later. But I'm also like, do they know that? I need space. I need space on that.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

I was like, do they know that you live there? That can't be. I mean, Calgary in its own way is can be liberal, right? I mean, it's funny because I'm from the East Coast. So the way we used to look at Alberta was always like, what's happening?

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Calgary Calgary is Calgary's just, you know what Calgary Alberta is just Alberta's um feelings are hurt. That's how I would describe it. And and rightly so. You know, they they felt that they weren't getting the um the gratitude or the rest of the country, the the you know their it's their feelings are hurt. And you know, their vote their vote doesn't count, you know, like the in the when you know when the elections happen, the decision of who's gonna be prime minister happens long before the Alberta, you know, votes get counted. It's stuff like that. Um but it's the energy sector and it's the policies and it's kind of the lack of you know, kind of the dismissal of it's a wild west cowboy kind of country or pla it's not country um place. And I think there I think there's grievances for sure that are fair, but you don't solve grievances by separating, you know, like you don't you don't divorce a country. Like I it's just that's what we're saying.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

We're just like talking like everybody have a chat.

SPEAKER_00 50:52

Yeah, have a chat.

SPEAKER_03 50:53

Have a good chat. And also what I don't un you know what that we won't get into it. I just feel like sometimes do we really understand the repercussions of that? Are we really thinking it through? Like I also wonder, I'm like, are you really wanting to separate or you just want to cause a stir for a vote? You know what I mean? Like are you what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Well, I think it's definitely the latter, but what does he say? How did you meet him? Like in Calgary? Well, how's a girl here and meet somebody in Calgary?

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Well, I went on, um, it's so funny. So I couldn't date, I couldn't meet anybody at all. So we met on. Which is crazy because you're Well, this is what we talked about. Like it was overcome before. We're just gonna say it. And I'm not saying like I Arlene and I were chatting, I don't know, it was like catching up the audience, just catching you all up. We were talking about like being hit on. Yep. And then I was saying I never really got hit on that much. And then you were saying, like, I didn't know. But I think I think I really wasn't. Like, I really think so. Yeah, like I would see when women would walk into and it's not like I wanted it, by the way. It's and I think that was the thing is I never felt even as a kid or as a teenager when we were really had to be validated by like in my smaller community, like you had to have a boyfriend and you had to. I remember thinking, like, you know, wouldn't it be nice? But I also knew who I was very young in a way that I didn't understand. I was like, ah, I'm fucking okay. Like I think I saw the cost of a heterosexual relationship in a real way when I was young. I was brought up in the Catholic Church, like I saw and I saw the dating world, and I saw it, and I don't I think I knew that if my values and I'm not trying to criticize it, but if my wants and needs lied in just getting married, then the life that I had the way we read, like reading Heidi and like the way I'd love to daydream, I was never gonna make it out.

SPEAKER_04 52:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

I was never gonna make it out. So I think that there was this other knowing, or I was just disgusting. Like, or there's that side of it, like I think I had the soft knowing that I never wanted it that way. And about you growing up, like, did you want people to? I mean, we all want to be attracted, like we all want to be attracted to, but I remember it not being a top priority, which I think might have been a bit different.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

No, I was so convinced that I wasn't attractive that I never really saw it. And I and I, you know, it was only when I look back now, you know, like I yeah, it it it's just really I was just super hard on myself. So I don't think I saw it, even though I had, you know, a dad definitely had dates and I definitely had men that you know that would hit on me and stuff, but I just never, even today I don't think I'd recognize it if it happened. I wouldn't recognize somebody hitting on me. I would kind of go, I'd be uncomfortable by it probably. I'd go they don't really like me, you know. Like I just yeah, no, and I mean at this age, like I don't like at this age, it's just we gotta go buy them together. Well, I can't anymore, but in my day I would have gone out but the thing is.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

Well, almost. It's like first like almost a year or uh yeah, not even a year. Is he in the energy business? Yeah, yeah. No. No, okay. In the energy business, like he's a politician. No, he's not. But like, did you I find too, like, I when people say that people would say to me, you don't know when someone's hitting on you. And I'm like, no, I've seen other men, like I've seen people hit on women, and I'm like, that's not what's happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

But then I didn't go. And nobody's ever come up to a bar to me and said, Hey, can I buy you a drink? Never.

SPEAKER_03 54:11

And like when women used to talk like absolutely never. And then when I was obviously being a single mom, not that that mattered, like I knew lots of single moms that sort of dated. But I remember literally like I mean, like, okay, you know, putting in the effort to meet someone. Can I stand up? Does this work if I stand up? Like, I remember being like, okay, like having to really like, because when you're a single mom and then so grateful to have a job, and then you think you've got one night out and you're like, I really want to meet someone. And also the way I grew up was like, I was like, I was horny, but uh because I was so religious, I equate it like if you wanted to have sex. If you wanted to have sex, that meant you were in love. Yeah. And I've always liked other women, I was like, you're not in love, you just want to get laid. Do you know what I mean? Remember this, remember this lesson. That is what is going on because I think growing up, it was dudes could talk about being horny all the time, but uh, women, Gen X women, the way we grew up, it was bad.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Like, and masturbation was bad, or anything to do with the sort of thing. Oh my god, like I remembered in hell.

SPEAKER_03 55:10

You heard it in hell and then you're gonna be able to remember my beard and I was like, this is fucking badass. And I was like, I wonder if my mates are doing it. Like I wanted to talk about it, but I knew enough not to. But I remember like being even in Toronto, and I was like, I have to, I'm gonna pass out if I don't get laid, but I just couldn't have a one-night scene. I did in first season, my character goes out and tries to have sex, but she realizes that she's because everyone tells you that. Don't they like, oh, just have fun, just go get laid. One, if you're not getting hit on, pretty hard for that to happen to get laid, you know what I mean. And then two, I have this whole gen X shame of like, oh, attachment, and like, are you allowed to do it? I remember going out in the bar and being like, okay, that's it, I've w one night out. I've got one night out. Do you know what I mean? And and I've got a kid at home, I don't know when I'm gonna get out again, and then like walking through, like doing myself up, but not, and then I was like, oh my god, I'm in my 40s and I don't have a clue, like, I didn't have a clue. A clue. I remember being like, literally like out of a sketch, like not knowing.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

How is that possible? Like, how is it possible? I mean, like what do you think? As you're talking about, I'm thinking, okay, no, I have been offered some guys have offered to buy me drinks. I'm thinking back, I'm thinking, no, that's not true, Arlene. You have had all that happen. But I still wouldn't, I still wouldn't always suspect that they didn't have that ulterior motive. And on one night stand, I would never in a million years go out and say, I need to have sex, I'm gonna meet somebody and go have sex. I I might have I've had one night stands, but it was always because they initiated it, would never be me because I went out and said that. And and I was I was a a a willing participant. Yes, yes. Um but very, very like even when I say that, I think it like twice in my life was it a one night stand? And on honestly, I would never, I would never go up to think I need to have sex, I'm gonna go find a guy to have sex with. I mean would never be. I would how uncomfortable are you guys right now? We're allowed to talk about this, right? We're allowed to talk about this. Arlene, we're allowed to talk about this.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

We wouldn't talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

It's my show.

SPEAKER_03 57:15

Nobody we have no sponsors. It's her show. You have no sponsors, and you'll never get one now. I just fucking destroyed Arlene any hope of ever making money. We have sworn on this show, we've talked about it. I crushed it because I said I was horny. Um, going back to one night stand, I remember I had one. This is where I was like, girl, get some more therapy. You went out and you instit you instigated it? No, never. I never would either. No, someone said, this person has a cra like kind of set me up. And I was so wanted. And I I think like now as I get older, I want to embrace that. Even as I am older, I love having sex. Like, I love it. It's your age, enjoy it. Yeah, like I love having sex. I think it's great. I think it's hilarious. I love, I think that I like to tell jokes in bed. Everyone's like, oh my God, this is why I didn't weigh. I'm like, wait, it's all coming together. Why people don't want to be with me. But like, I absolutely love having sex. And for so many reasons. But I growing up, that was just not something that you could do. And I was like trying to be kind and have compassion for myself, like in my 40s. Like, well, Mary, you have to forgive yourself. Like, it's not like you were under people talk a big talk about sex and being a woman and being, but it's that wasn't the reality. No. And I remember when I did, I don't know why I want to act it out, lie on the floor. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry to you. You're like, what the go ahead? Lie on the floor. But I remember after the one night stand, I was like, I'm gonna do it because it's the best way to act it out. But I remember in his bed, and then I was like, after the sex, and sex was great, and then I was just like, oh god, oh my god, we have to date now. Like immediately, um, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

You felt there had to be like a whole that you couldn't just get up and go out.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

And the be was mad at him. I think he was eating noodles at the time. Like, I think he got up, and like most people would just be like, got what I wanted, and I didn't even want to, I didn't particularly even think he was that great. Like, I hope you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm sure you're a lovely person, but like I did not want a relationship with him. But what I was extra like what I found so extraordinary was like my body was going through this whole chaos of like, oh no, you have to be with him. Oh, he should be treating me this way. And like, and I'm like, what the fuck? Like, see, I'm this is it. Like, I bet you were cool with your one-night stand. You probably got it.

SPEAKER_00 59:20

No, no, I oh, I have I mean my daughter's in the room, but Oh yeah, sorry, sorry. So no, one one was with a Bob Sledger who that's cool. Yeah, it was very cool. It was at the 1988 Olympics. Rest Please. Yes, which was I I don't even know how that happened. And the other one was with uh a a a a f a f a guy who's still a a friend. So, you know, like it's that's it. You did well.

SPEAKER_03 59:46

You did well. Like you didn't have the I just realized that I was blaming this guy for not doing he didn't do anything wrong, that I wanted all these things from it to make me feel okay if we're just wanting to have sex. Yeah, like And then I knew, I knew I was like, oh, this is like the way you were forced to move through the world as a woman.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

I I lied, there was another one.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:04

And what do we want to talk about, ham?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

Yeah, the other one was in Switzerland with um Oh my god, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

Can I just this is my camera. I don't know why I keep turning Darlene's camera. This was in Switzerland. It was it was She is having the one the coolest. I had a guy I would be eight fucking noodles. You would have Bobsledder, a banker. A banker.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

No, those are the only two. The other one I wouldn't call a candlestick maker. A candlestick maker and uh Yeah, that that was that was it. But I then the rest of I've been in long-term relationships. Like I've I was married twice, uh once 12 years, once for seven years. I was in a ten-year relationship after that. I I've been in a relationship most of my adult life. Right, and I've been single most of my life. Yeah, and so well, I've now been single as almost as much as I've been, well, not no, not quite, but I at when I was in my mid-50s, I said, ah, you know, like if it happens, it happens. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I just I I can't imagine it'll happen. I don't go anyplace where I could meet anyone.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:01

You're not doing this, we're not doing one of these. Well, we're not doing one of them. We can Arlene and Meredith go out. There's a fucking show. We're both like this. No one knows how to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:08

Well the guy from Calgary might have something to say for him.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:10

No, no, I'm in love with him. He's amazing. Are you in love with it? Yeah, yeah, I think I am. Yes, 100%. And I think it's weird because I'll but also I have to learn, like, I was saying Do I know this guy?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:20

You don't necessarily like well tell me I after. I won't.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:22

I'll tell you after. I don't know if I know. But like I think what's hard is like I have I realized that um I have to learn because I had to learn to allow myself to be loved, which sounds so probably typical, but I really didn't know that I wasn't allowing it. I sometimes would connect the dots for next yeah. So it's been it's been a bit of a process. And I think it makes sense. I think when you look back, and you as much as I joke of like, you know, I don't get hit on or I don't do this, and really, you know, I think that I have maintained singledom for a long time for probably certain reasons, you know. And so I think that I've had an opportunity with someone to that has patient enough to sort of bear witness while I explore that, which can't be easy all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:11

But at the same time, what you're doing now, I am interested in, like, because there is being single for so long, I'm actually okay being single. So, like, it's uh it's great that I've met person and it's really great, but at the same time, I'm okay with like I get when you say like like that's a real state of being that exists for women.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

You have to be, and I think women are getting more and more um familiar with that and comfortable with that, and I think it's really having an impact on men. You have a lot of men right now that are really struggling with not needing, like women who are in that in their 20s and 30s, saying, I don't need a man in my life, I can be self-sufficient, I can get my own home, I can get my own job, I can have my own career, I don't need to be in a relationship where, you know, my generation was you got married because you, you know, first of all, you couldn't even get your own credit card. You couldn't get a mortgage in your name when I was a young woman. Like it was these this is not that long ago. I think that's I know, like that's very scary. So you got married because you needed to be. How old were you when you got married? As 19. So you you you were married because you needed to that was how you were going to survive. And so, and that's why women stayed with men who were abusive, and that's why things were bad, and that's why, you know, there was the you know, my mom's generation was the valley of the dolls. Like they literally were drinking, you know, taking Valium and prescription drugs to kind of ease the the pain of their lives, which were just so uh really depressing. Depressing. I mean, you know, my mom's generation was a very depressed generation because they were at home, they had no right to a thought, they had no right to votes, a credit card, their own freedom, their own financial literacy or freedom. They had nothing. And so they lived this life of, you know, your job. I mean, good housekeeping magazine, damn you all, because it was all about making sure in the Cosmo and all of those magazines I talked about earlier, you know, like at the end of the day, it was like make sure you had a drink in your hand when your husband came home, make sure you looked beautiful and you were, you know, had your hair done and you were dressed up, make sure the house was clean, make sure the kids were happy, make sure dinner was made. This was how they defined what a good wife was. This is what my mom's generation and to my generation grew up with. This is what we were taught. And now when I see this whole trad wife thing coming out there, where this notion of traditional wives is coming back and being amplified by Christian nationalism, which is basically, you know, let's let's make sure that the wife belongs in the home. What does that mean for 51% of the population out there who will never live their dreams and never be able to do what they will are capable of doing and never help solve the challenges and the pain in this world because they're being demeaned and put in their place and told that they are their job is to take care of the husband. And I I will never ascribe to that. I never have, I never will. I, you know, I well, I shouldn't say I never will. I I did. I think I was thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:14

I think that's what's wonderful to witness about you and hear your experience with that is like you have twofold experience. One, you witnessed it as a young child, and that's interesting to me. And then two, you lived it and then you made different choices, and now you're on the other side of it. So that's what I mean when you were like, you know, the show has evolved, but the fact that you were talking about a show about being single, that's much more power, that has so much weight and power behind it because of that experience of like what is it truly to be single when you have that experience of, and I don't know how old you were or if you want to talk about it or not, but witness under like what age were you when you understood your mom's generation and what they were going through? And about them like, were you 15? Was it when you got older? Like, when do you go as a young woman? Wait, I think this is depress I think this is what depression looks like.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:58

I didn't really understand my mom's. Until I was an adult. I didn't really understand everything she had gone through. I mean, I saw it, my parents got divorced when I was 13, so I saw a lot of the challenges that were going on. But in my, you know, young view, this was a, you know, my mom had had an affair, my dad was, they were unhappy, they were fighting all the time. It was, it was just, it was just a really dysfunctional life. And so when they split up, um, it was very easy to blame her. And and so it wasn't until later in life when I really got to know her better and really started to forgive. I don't even think I didn't owe her forgiveness, and she did nothing really. You know, she had she had her own challenges in a marriage that wasn't giving her what she needed. Um but it wasn't until later that I went, wow, that and she talked to me about the depression she had, and you know, she was on Valium. She was on um uh what's that one starts with an A? Atavan. You know, like she was taking Adavan right up until you know the last years of her life. Um, because that's what she felt she needed to calm herself down, because that's what she had been trained by doctors in that generation who prescribed those things like they were candy. And this was what many women that generation went through, and it's not talked about enough. And so when I hear trad wife, I j I do I have a visceral reaction to it. Um I also grew up in the Mormon church, which was very much about women belong at home.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

Um, and you know, I I have nothing wrong with a woman who chooses to stay at home. That's their choice. And there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:27

It's a no choice is made for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

It when it's when it's when it's made for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:31

Yeah, and then like calling back that saying again, again, who does it serve? Like the control of women through time is real. And so having a podcast that's just about being single is a lot more than it's just about being single.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:42

Yeah, but it's about life.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:44

It really is, and it's about holding power, and it's about it's a I mean, still it's a revolutionary movement, which is being talked about all the time. Like, I think was it Vogue or you have to forgive me, uh magazine cover a big it just came out a few months ago where um boyfriends were outdated, like it's cool to be single. Yeah. You know, so you're kind of on the cutting edge of owning it and what that looks like and what you're talking about, like the housing market has shifted. I think more women own houses outright than men. And what's interesting is the fact that it's newsworthy. And then sometimes it makes me so angry. I think I don't know if it was The Guardian, they did an article and they were like talking about how the men feel about it. Who give a fuck what the men feels? Like it's still centered the man.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Yeah. So Yeah. Yeah, what how hard it's been on men to feel, you know. Um that the women are independent? Yes. That's that's the storyline, is that now you have men who are um Yeah, I mean what's what's what's that what's the what is that um group of men that are in infels? Incels. Right? Like yeah, like there's just listen, I feel s I uh there's a lot of me that says it's not the average man's fault whatsoever. Like they also grew up in this this societal kind of system. And they also were raised to believe certain things were you know normal and right. Um but you don't break generations of trauma unless you actually do something different.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

And communicate, and I don't care what anybody says, like I do think that most people want good, and I do don't believe, you know, like they do want good. But I've had my own run-ins with incels. They love to have a with my work, they love to have a go at me. What like how so? Like online or they'll go, you know. Um what's interesting is that normally, so when we were doing the show about menopause, the stuff that ended up doing quite well was the stuff that you, you know, was doing like an internal exam or period blood from the crack of my ass down there. And like I think that anything that trended on and it did really well, shares and stuff, because you know, people women were seeing themselves. Yeah. It's not groundbreaking, it was just allowed on television. Yeah. Women go through that all the time. Pap smears are really common. Um and not fun. And again, I I just have to get to that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:55

Are you gonna go back on the ground?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

I gotta go back on the ground. We're gonna do new.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:02

No one's getting a sponsor. Um we're gonna get a sponsor. We're gonna get a it'll be uh um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:10

Dude, I had to get a biopsy on my uterus lake, everything's fine. Um, but when I went to get one, I know a bunch of women that had them, and they were like, oh, you know, pap smears are really painful or they're not uncomfortable. And then when I got a biopsy, I was like, women, I I have a problem with passing out. That's a whatever, that's a podcast for another day. So this woman, it was an incredible doctor, and she was like, gave me some drugs to huff on to get through the pain, and I can take a hit. Like I I can take a I can take a hit of pain. And I was disgusted that women, she was like, women do this without drugs. And I the biopsy? Yeah, I cannot I cannot tell you how angry I was on the table. No, and I was like, because it was invented by a man, and it's like, what, because they think we had babies, that's okay. I and then I felt like you know, I had other women that had them, and I was always compassionate, but I was like, and that's the same with the paps mirror. When we were doing the show, oh this is going on camera, and I remember they were like this, I was so adamant. And when I used to do these things on camera, I was like, oh, this is gonna be great because um I've been moving around so much, I'm sweating in my leather. Can I take this off? Um like I don't know how you're editing it, but they make they do miracles. Well, this isn't the end. It isn't that when you edit me out of my jacket, I'm like boop, and then you can be like, and then she's got no jacket off. Make a transition. Um whenever I would do this this stuff on camera, like show the period blood or did the internal exams, I was so happy that when it made a past script form that the C the CBC are like, okay, let's give it a go. And then on the day, I would literally have diarrhea. I always just say to myself, you don't get diarrhea, it ain't worth doing.

unknown 1:11:53

Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:55

But I remember feeling, and I've talked about this before, the shame. Like when I had to do the period blood from here to here, and then I walk out and I say, I'm fucking bleeding having a flashbird at work. And everyone was so supportive and it was great, but you couldn't hear a pin drop on set. And I remember rape before I walked out, and it's fake period blood. And it's so it's not like when I do these things, it's like, oh Meredith, and I'm like, I don't give a shit. I, Arlene, from the way we grew up as young women, yeah, because I'm not that much younger than you, that I was mortified, and I again prom I'm just everybody am I the only one that's cried on your podcast? No, everybody's cried on my podcast. Pretty much everybody's. Thank God. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

Sarah was maybe the only one that hasn't cried on the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:36

Yeah, so I remember feeling so shameful that I felt shame that I wasn't there, and then when we did the internal exam, I remember putting my feet in the harnesses that are like separate. I'll do this. Like, you're welcome, you don't have to say it. But like when I was like this, and it just it's so like if you've ever been sexually assaulted, if you've ever had, and the fact that this you have an in like an object inside of you, you don't really know who's doing it, like it's it's so barbaric. And that the you know, you're flat on your back. And I remember I went in and I was flat on my back, and then our camera person who was amazing, was like, hey, can we put the head up, like the bed up a little bit so we can and I was like, no. I was like, this is what it's like. You're on your back, there is no pillow, there is no relief, there is no goddamn, there's a paper sheet, and I said, I am not, women won't see themselves. It was everything was just like everyone was like, okay. Settle down. Settle down, Maredith. But obviously my feet still like in the harnesses, but it was like we have an opportunity to get it right. But at the same time, I was mortified.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

Well, do you know that instrument that they use to do the um um pap smear has was invented, I and I I don't I'm not gonna get it right, like I won't say 60 or 80 years. It was it has not changed in decades. And that when it was invented, it was invented at a time when they had no, you know, like they had no access to the different types of materials that they have now, to different kinds of techniques that they have now. And why hasn't it changed? Because a man's never had to take one. Like it's like a man's never had one. Otherwise, if a man had had that done to them, a pap smear with that instrument, they would have changed it a long time ago. And I think there's women now that are actually women doctors that are now invented uh a new tool to do the pap smear with.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:26

But that's what that's the that's the damage right there. That's the damage right there. When you don't have an equal society, then that's just what's gonna happen. When we talk about women should take over, I'm like, yeah, at least 50-50 that shit up because we don't need six blades inside of our uterus giving us a quick scrape and saying, like, and on your way, and everyone. And then what are we telling our daughters that that's okay? Like, we I'm so it's so complicated right now in the world of like silence and pain, and like, you know, when when um you were pregnant and I don't God, I might never be, oh God, I'm never gonna work again, I'm never gonna have friends again. Um, you know, when you're pregnant, and I remember there was pride and when women would talk about they took drugs or they didn't take drugs. And I thought, how was that a source of pride? So, does that make sense? Like, I think there was a pride like women that have natural births over women that have c-sections, and this whole thing of silence and pain and taking pain and the pride of that, you know, along with the pastors. And I think what? And I always think to myself, what is happening? Yeah. Like, why are women, why are we thinking that there's Why you glorified them? Who told us, you know, when you drink the poison, like who told us that that's okay? Like you should get help. It should be it is painful. You should, if you need a C-section, you should have it. Like, if you need drugs, you should go take the drugs. There shouldn't, there shouldn't be bragging rights on who did on who did what.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:43

Maritus, when I had my uh I had I had two miscarriages, and on my second miscarriage, they put me in the hospital room with somebody who had just given birth to a child. And there was no like so you imagine, you know, you're sitting there, you've just lost a child. I'm so sorry. Yeah, but this is what they did. Like this is what they do. They they don't there's no consideration for it. It's it's like uh it was I I was it, you know, was was it because I don't think it was purposeful, I just think it was thoughtless at that point.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:10

This was even almost worse.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:11

Yeah, which is almost worse. But it's like they don't even understand the connection. Like I'm really sorry, like there is no No. There's no but again, you know, you you can think, well that was then and this is now, but has it really changed? Has it changed enough? What are we doing? Like why aren't women more in control? Why can't a female president not win in the, you know, U.S. election? Why can't, you know, like why is it that women don't run for politics? Why is it that women, you know, get to a certain level in business and then they get tamped down? Why is it that, you know, I mean, I I think actors probably have more visible equality fights in the public eye than almost anybody because people will know when somebody says, Well, I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts, and because it makes headlines because it's a famous actress, you know, kind of saying, Why aren't I being paid the same? Um, but it doesn't happen often.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:06

You don't happen often, and I feel like I don't know, I I mean women are consistently resilient, like the fight never stops. Like I find like the bounce back of women is pretty extraordinary. And like I don't again, I think the answer is pretty simple because uh people making the money, it stays the same. We don't have to we don't want to shift it. Yeah. Like no one's I know the world is in such a brutal place, and I don't want to make this podcast so depressing, but like it makes sense why change doesn't happen because we can now see who it serves. Yes. Like what were your thoughts on the Met Gala?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:40

I I hate it. I actually said something about the Met Gala. I this year I I was really There was an opportunity. Yes. There was an opportunity. Well, some took some did some did take it, some did take the opportunity and didn't attend. Um but but the whole there was two things wrong with it. Um but uh in general, you know the people who pay ten million dollars to be able to attend, and you know, the whole notion the whole notion of the Met Gala is is is is wrong. The whole notion of um, you know, I know that if and I said like if you want to give money to the arts, give money to the arts. I a hundred percent. And if you want to help young designers, then help them get up set up in business or or buy their clothes from them. But wearing these costumes that no one that no one will ever wear that they put they wear on the red carpet or on the stairs and they take them off because they they're not functional, that's not really helping emerging artists to become famous, I don't think. Maybe it is. I don't know enough about that. I don't know enough about how that world works. But I what I can say is I find it all really distasteful now. I used to be a big I used to love watching the Academy Awards and and I used to love making you know fun of you know some of the clothes and some of the people. Now I find it just uh. Like I just go, mmm, that's not the way we should be behaving in a world that's got so much inequality.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:06

Yeah, I think I I I hear you. I think when there's it would be almost easier to sort of swallow if the people that had the opportunity to create change, like things were happening at the same time. But when you feel like the world is drowning with pain and like seeing and I think what you're saying, going back to not to your miscarriage, what happened, but when you actually s think you have to face, which I find so hard, that people don't care. Yeah, they don't care. And that is what is the hardest because then it's like, okay, then whose job is it to make them care?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:36

Any country or any world that allows what Trump is saying and doing right now to be normalized is not a world where women are gonna win.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:46

One hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:47

And and that and that should be enough to get women to uprise. And why don't they uprise? Because so many women in this world do not have any means of support. So many in this women in this world do not are victims of violence. So many women in this world feel no ability to use their voices because they're afraid for their jobs or their futures. It's it is a it it is a big issue. And I don't know, I don't know if it'll ever get solved.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:16

I don't know. I think it's up to the men really, too. I think women keep fighting and fighting. And I think that you know, when the Rape Academy came out and it was 67 million, am I getting it wrong? 62 million, and then in the next month it was like 87 million. The fact that men weren't outraged, but I think I know three guys that posted about it. And like we can do all that we can do, and we keep continuing to do it. And what I'm saying again is even repetitive, but I think that what I don't understand is when you have a mom or you have a daughter or you have a sister, I don't understand. Like, talk about the power of shame. That you are okay with women getting drugged and raped, and you are among and you love other women in your life. The power of shame amongst men looking bad in front of another man for standing up for someone, I can't get my head around because we're not of that world. So it's like I'm in terms of change and how change works and how conversations shift, and I think it's starting to happen. I'm, you know, online you see a little bit, but I'm never out in the world. You know, but I want to know, and I'm not gonna ask you, don't worry, the two camera guys, I'm not gonna make you do it. But I, as I move through the world, like I ask that question a lot to men that I love, to be like, when you see that, when you see that femicide is on the rise, when you see that kit Wait, do anything about it? What is what happens when you're in a law, you know, whatever, and a guy makes a comment or a lewd thing and you see it, what happens while and I'm not I'm trying not to judge, I'm trying to be like, what happens in your internal body, you know it's wrong, that you feel like it's too embarrassing to say anything. Um well, most of it is I still think they have to discover why. I don't know if they've ever been asked the question. You know, I don't know how many times they've had an opportunity for someone to ask them that question. I don't know if that's an opportunity or not, but that's the way I'm gonna phrase it. And I think it takes questions. I think it takes a second because I think that for me to continue to create stories or write stories, and even though I don't know I'll ever like work again, but like I want to understand that. Well, it's funny when we talk about like if you speak your mind or if you try to do different things, it's not like it's not like I'm you know well this is you know But in today's world where you can produce you can do you can produce your own things that can become like huge.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:41

I guess so.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:42

Maybe I should just need to walk away from broadcasting and just start doing my own thing. Did you feel freedom when you did this?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:46

Yeah. I I actually really don't worry about what we're talking about. And I only think I the only reason I said, well, we I know because Miranda said, you know, the shows that have political content you can't um boost. Okay, so now we know that. Uh but that isn't gonna stop me from talking about political content because the shows will still do well. It'll still reach an audience that you know that um follows and subscribes. And I I there is a freedom to saying the truth and what you want to say. And I think you could you could do amazingly well. Like you you are.

unknown 1:23:21

Am I though?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:22

Yeah. Why are you giving your ideas to them to own?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:25

I'm like, I know. Can we let's just this is it. Arlene and I We're gonna start. We're gonna start a show.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:33

This cat right here. This can't be. They always have to post. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:38

We're gonna start, we're gonna start a show. We're gonna start a show. But I have to say, in terms of like working with the CBC for as long as I have, like, how lucky am I? Yeah. And the fact that, you know, there are discussions about what we put on. It's not like every time they're like, oh, it's never like, you know, do what you want. But I will say I am, as much as I go, oh, it's so hard to get content on. Like, they have the discussion. It does happen. It does go on. I think it's just takes two years, but it gets. It gets dumb. But at the same time, being a single mom, not having a lot of, you know, I don't have child support. It's just me. I think what you're going back to of like, what is the cost of like your financial risk of saying something or not saying something. And I know the weight of, and I've been with other worked with other artists where they rightfully so don't say anything because they don't want to lose their job.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:24

100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:25

And that they've seen the repercussion I have had repercussions from saying things. Like things do happen, you know, that you see.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:31

Well they're not gonna happen on this show. I can tell you that. Here we are, but that's okay. What do you want to say to the world? Like I always say to everybody, say whatever you want. Say whatever you want.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:46

Um, okay, two things. Can I say two things? You can say six. Okay. One thing is if you're going to go out into the world and be like, I'm gonna get hit on, or like I'm I'm gonna pick someone up, don't do this move. Don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. I mean, that looks pretty good, but what you didn't see is like one of my eyes is crossed. I don't like see. She does have her eyes crossed, right now. So, like, probably not all that. Or maybe do it, I don't know. And the other thing I would say is I don't care what anybody fucking says. I think authenticity is totally the way forward, whatever that looks like. Ask the question. And even like the way we were talking about, like, if you are curious about something like the way, you know, I want men to speak out more on the assaults of women, like I would say that's the biggest thing I've learned. Instead of coming at it with so much anger, which I always used to do, but it like to come at it with like a with like openness and curiosity. And sometimes fucking anger. I mean, who the fuck are we kidding? But sometimes you should be curious. So those two things. Those are those are super good things.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:49

Okay, this was um, I feel you're just you're just you're entertaining, you're you're funny, you're you're smart, you're like you're just you are authentic. You there's nothing, I don't there is nothing disingenuous about you whatsoever. Not one inch of your body is disingenuous.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:10

I was having a hard morning. I told you the time before, and I think my authenticity was being questioned. Yeah. And I just want to say thank you. That means a lot. And you know what? Your shirt was inside out. Remember that your shirt's inside out.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:29

See you next time. Thanks, everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye. That's my camera. Bye.